We are at a top area private and I feel the kids are literally feral at every class party I volunteer for - which has been a lot in the past. However, I’ve also walked the halls on a normal school day and seen all orderly classrooms and well behaved kids. I think it’s the party atmosphere. Don’t judge a class on a party day.

Our experience in grade 5 has been fantastic. Our school departmentalizes so my kid has 3 teachers for code classes plus one special each day. So that’s 3-4 different cohorts during the day. It helps behavior SO much. I wish we also departmentalized in grade 4 as it was stressful except for compacted math. Kids are physically bigger now in grades 4 and 5 and need that break from each other.

Anonymous wrote:I don't have advice for the OP nor am I here to opine on what kids to put in which classroom. Just wanted to point that that I'm frankly appalled at the number of posters in this thread who use IEP status as a proxy for kids who are violent or have behavioral problems.

I think it was assumed students with IEP's in this thread since the poster talked about the para's in the classroom for support. Your comment is one of the types that are meant to make people feel guilty for even daring to point out that some kids with IEP's do have behavior issues. Not all, not even most, there's a very small subset, but they do require more support and maybe full inclusion isn't the best program, maybe MCPS doesn't actually provide supports or a program that is adequate for these students who deserve better. The students in their current classes also deserve better. So do the teachers.

There are students without IEP's that have behavioral issues as well, and they too deserve better and supports in place.

My proposal for a first step: clear and consistent consequences and removal from the classroom when their behavior is disrupting learning. Not saying out of school, but an alternate room with support and tools for regulating themselves. That way learning can continue for everyone else ready to learn. And the child has a better opportunity to return to a state of being ready to learn. This should be done at minimal for all students whether they have an IEP or not.

Anonymous wrote:I don't have advice for the OP nor am I here to opine on what kids to put in which classroom. Just wanted to point that that I'm frankly appalled at the number of posters in this thread who use IEP status as a proxy for kids who are violent or have behavioral problems.

Point out where you see it then and explain what is wrong.

I don't have advice for the OP nor am I here to opine on what kids to put in which classroom. Just wanted to point that that I'm frankly appalled at the number of posters in this thread who use IEP status as a proxy for kids who are violent or have behavioral problems.

Anonymous wrote:
Hi there. I’m a public school employee and I think there needs to be a PSA to all public schools parents that if you are going to choose a public education for your kid, you will have special needs children in your child’s class at some point.

These kids will have a variety of disabilities, ranging from autism, cerebral palsy, learning disabilities, ADHD, etc. The kids with more severe disabilities will have a para whose job is to help them (not your non disabled kid). Special education laws state that these kids should be in the least restrictive environment and therefore likely end up in the same class as your non disabled child.

If you don’t like it you can choose to educate your child in a private school. Privates are not required by law to educate all children and often do not accept special needs children to their schools.

However, there will be many private school kids with anxiety and/or inattentive ADHD who need extended time on testing . But that’s a story for another day.

In MCPS, some schools put all the IEP kids in one classroom. That's not appropriate or even legal. You are entirely missing the point.

Yeah spinning this as not liking special needs kids is really not a good take. I am a parent. I *have* special needs kids who are correctly placed in gen ed. One of my kids is a child who can be very disruptive when he's not properly supported. I am also a resource teacher so my job is helping kids in gen ed with special needs.

I want kids to be in the classes that are best for them. Some kids need special classes, yes, but the majority of kids with disabilities should be in gen ed with support. But what I often see is that they're put in gen ed without enough support and then the teachers are being blamed for not being able to do the impossible or the parents are blamed for not being happy with the outcome, and it allows admin and the system to dodge the conversations about why they won't staff and hire at a level that will actually allow these children to be successful.

OP -- Based on my DC's experience many years ago with a very disruptive and intermittently violent child in their ES class (sent one kid to the ER), I want to suggest that the teacher and admin may well be taking efforts to address at least some of what's happening, but for privacy reasons can't share that and for bureaucratic reasons might take time to work through. Providing additional documentation could well support their efforts to obtain addition in-class resources or, if warranted, move a child who needs a different environment to that environment.

I would suggest documenting any harmful (violence, theft, etc) events in an email to the principal, cc'ing the teacher, in as factual, dispassionate and non-accusatory way as possible, with the stated goal being to ensure that the teacher and all students get whatever help is needed to support them, whether it is additional in-class or in-school resources or transfer elsewhere. I would not name the particular students involved and would complement both teacher and paras on their efforts if that's warranted, but leave no doubt that admin has a record of what is going on -- again, assuming that it truly is an out of control situation.

In our case, it was clear after the fact that the teacher and admin knew the kid needed more, but the clear record made by parents was part of what enabled them to get a full time shadow for the kid at issue and then ultimately move them to a classroom program that was able to support their needs.

OP here and I have never said these kids are bad, nor do I think that. I do think that they are challenging and the sheer number in this grade is resulting in an inability for multiple teachers to manage them. One of my kids had a class with a single very challenging student who actually stabbed my child with a pencil and destroyed books and parts of the classroom multiple times in the first few weeks of school. The school handled it very well, and with a para in the room they were able to function the rest of the year, we were all so happy with how the teacher and admin handled it. The teacher was still using a lot of energy on this student but it worked. That is not what is happening here. At least two children have very significant issues and two- three others immediately join in misbehavior when it’s instigated. I don’t actually know if the “follower” kids have IEPs or how they would act if they were not watching the other two, but the result is really really chaotic.

Anonymous wrote:I'm tired of everyone acting like any criticism of the current state of inclusion is a blanket intolerance of kids with IEP's and special needs!

Majority of special education students are best served in the general education classroom! And I want them there. BUT lets not pretend there are not cases where MCPS is placing them in their "Least Restrictive Environment" inappropriately and without adequate supports and supervision and it therefore derails the learning of entire classrooms or terrorizes grade levels!

In fact, it's not always even kids with learning disabilities but kids with emotional issues.

By jumping to the conclusion that anyone who critiques the current state of education is intolerant just shuts down a needed discussion about change that can serve everyone better! Because there are some kids that need more support and are not getting it!

Thank you. And if we want to promote inclusion then these critiques are necessary. I hate hearing kids come home and talk about how certain kids are “bad.” Often language that shames the child. It is not ok for anyone involved. A kid with special needs is being put down by an exhausted teacher while a roomful of kids watches and learns that special needs = bad kid. (And yes I talk about this with my kids and correct them but then they ask me why the teacher gets to say it if they can’t)

I'm tired of everyone acting like any criticism of the current state of inclusion is a blanket intolerance of kids with IEP's and special needs!

Majority of special education students are best served in the general education classroom! And I want them there. BUT lets not pretend there are not cases where MCPS is placing them in their "Least Restrictive Environment" inappropriately and without adequate supports and supervision and it therefore derails the learning of entire classrooms or terrorizes grade levels!

In fact, it's not always even kids with learning disabilities but kids with emotional issues.

By jumping to the conclusion that anyone who critiques the current state of education is intolerant just shuts down a needed discussion about change that can serve everyone better! Because there are some kids that need more support and are not getting it!

Anonymous wrote:
Hi there. I’m a public school employee and I think there needs to be a PSA to all public schools parents that if you are going to choose a public education for your kid, you will have special needs children in your child’s class at some point.

These kids will have a variety of disabilities, ranging from autism, cerebral palsy, learning disabilities, ADHD, etc. The kids with more severe disabilities will have a para whose job is to help them (not your non disabled kid). Special education laws state that these kids should be in the least restrictive environment and therefore likely end up in the same class as your non disabled child.

If you don’t like it you can choose to educate your child in a private school. Privates are not required by law to educate all children and often do not accept special needs children to their schools.

However, there will be many private school kids with anxiety and/or inattentive ADHD who need extended time on testing . But that’s a story for another day.

This is pretty dismissive of OP’s actual question.

Hi there. I’m a public school employee and I think there needs to be a PSA to all public schools parents that if you are going to choose a public education for your kid, you will have special needs children in your child’s class at some point.

These kids will have a variety of disabilities, ranging from autism, cerebral palsy, learning disabilities, ADHD, etc. The kids with more severe disabilities will have a para whose job is to help them (not your non disabled kid). Special education laws state that these kids should be in the least restrictive environment and therefore likely end up in the same class as your non disabled child.

If you don’t like it you can choose to educate your child in a private school. Privates are not required by law to educate all children and often do not accept special needs children to their schools.

However, there will be many private school kids with anxiety and/or inattentive ADHD who need extended time on testing . But that’s a story for another day.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not a McPS staffer, just a parent, but have heard that in my kids’ elementary school, they tend to cluster a lot of the kids with IEPs in the same class rather than distributing them evenly because it’s easier to provide similar extra resources (like extra paras to deal with special needs or extra reading specialists for dyslexia or whatever) if more kids with those needs are in one class.

My kid (who doesn’t have an IEP) was in one of the classes that seemed to have a lot of special needs kids last year, but not this year.

I definitely get fewer reports of kid misbehavior/meltdowns this year. But the paraprofessionals who helped my kid’s class last year (even the ones without special needs) don’t come to my kid’s class this year-it’s just the teacher. So there are tradeoffs. Kids with more needs bring more resources to the classroom that can benefit all the kids in that class.

Don’t judge your kids’ school by one class party.

The paras are doing nothing besides chasing or following around the most disruptive child and repeatedly telling people to sit down. My child doesn’t benefit from their presence in any way at all and it adds to the noise.

I should have mentioned in my OP that this is my 3rd time in this classroom and they have all been bad. One student only spends part of the day in the class (he is in a special program) and was not there for the first occasion and really added to the craziness today. I’m sure it was worse than usual because of the party but there’s no chance things are going well the rest of the time. I have heard reports teachers of older grades are already dreading this cohort.

Have your other times been "fly on the wall" type observing of regular class time? If not (and honestly even if so-- but certainly especially not if you're having it on special events) you can't assume that the paras are unhelpful.

+1. I would doubt anyone who would say paras are doing nothing but helping with a single kid. My kid has no special needs but has told me about the time Ms so and so helped with XYZ. That’s what adults do when they see a kid who needs a hand.

Any extra adult in the classroom is a help to the teacher.

I wonder if you are thinking of special education teachers or resource teachers helping out at recess. That’s not what is happening here. These paras are literally bodyguards focused on the child they are responsible for keeping in the classroom. I am a believer in education for every child but pretending that my kid is actually benefiting from two massively disruptive children because they result in another adult body in the classroom is just ridiculous.

I think if we could convince the administration to add another class next year it might help some, to split up the challenging kids a bit more and also just let the teachers have to split their attention a little less. Has anyone ever successfully advocated for that?

My kids' school has 1 special ed teacher. She's not in every classroom. I'm surprised you're so insistent that you know how every paraprofessional in MCPS acts. You're not correct, at least not at my kid's school.

Well I was specifically describing the situation that I witnessed with my own eyes for these specific paras and circumstances and the responses were to tell me I was wrong and I should be grateful these students brought other adults into the classroom. I imagine there are other situations where the students they are assigned to are less overwhelming and perhaps they have some bandwidth to help out with something but that is not the situation here. At all.

And yes I feel very very badly for the teacher who is being given an impossible task and I hope she doesn’t quit. She has already made comments about extra challenges this year and I suspect is seeing this as a year to get through. She’s definitely doing her best and I do not blame her at all. But it seems like it’s going to be *every* year to some extent for my kid.

I don’t believe it’s a case of all the IEP kids being in one classroom. One child was already moved because the teacher is so overwhelmed but the class is still nuts. The two really problematic students from DC’s class last year have been in different classes from the beginning. There are clearly a lot of tough kids this cohort and not enough classes to even split them up to one per class. I have heard one class this grade seems to be going the best so I guess it’s possible we might get lucky next year.

Sometimes it's a challenging cohort. Which is super hard as you can't escape it in ES without changing schools. Theorists 5th graders are much worse behaved than 3rd and 4th. They missed K in person an a chunk of 1st. Those fundamental skills are clearly still lacking and it shows. They aren't bad kids, just had a really unlucky start to their school experience and didn't get to learn and absorb critical skills at the right time.