Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ADs at 90% of these schools are rather incompetent.

None of them are visionary enough to execute on this and generally are very risk adverse.

I don’t any type of formal merger between the leagues happening given it would require a ton of “extra” work for these ADs and out of standard scope of work.

Not gonna argue the additional work aversion, but doesn't this really all boil down to money. None of these schools tuitions are going down and neither are their fixed costs, like staff, so isn't the easiest solution for schools to either a) drop sports that have little of any participation at some schools or b) merge with other area conferences that might be more competitive for them to be in and reduce their travel costs. If this is the case or some blend of it, doesn't this mean EHS and Saints go to the MAC with Potomac and Flint Hill - at least for sports like football, lacrosse and baseball?

So the idea is what?

At least for me, this is very hard to follow especially when it comes to the financial impact.

You're suggesting that the solution to low participation sports is to merge with other conferences? Are there in fact "lower participation sports" that are lower participation because the teams aren't competitive in their current conference? And how does boosting participation in those sports have any kind of financial impact on the school? Sounds like you are imagining this to bolster some sort of argument for shuffling conferences.

You talked about saving transportation costs? Aren't almost all the costs associated with transportation "fixed" costs? (The bus and the driver?) They aren't sending the teams via Uber or Delta Airlines like the colleges)

Making the case to the schools for this to the school heads given all the disruption, displeased alumni, upset coaches, etc. would seem to be a difficult task.

Almost every conference in every sport has teams that are at the top and those who cluster at the bottom.

Anonymous wrote:The ADs at 90% of these schools are rather incompetent.

None of them are visionary enough to execute on this and generally are very risk adverse.

I don’t any type of formal merger between the leagues happening given it would require a ton of “extra” work for these ADs and out of standard scope of work.

Not gonna argue the additional work aversion, but doesn't this really all boil down to money. None of these schools tuitions are going down and neither are their fixed costs, like staff, so isn't the easiest solution for schools to either a) drop sports that have little of any participation at some schools or b) merge with other area conferences that might be more competitive for them to be in and reduce their travel costs. If this is the case or some blend of it, doesn't this mean EHS and Saints go to the MAC with Potomac and Flint Hill - at least for sports like football, lacrosse and baseball?

The ADs at 90% of these schools are rather incompetent.

None of them are visionary enough to execute on this and generally are very risk adverse.

I don’t any type of formal merger between the leagues happening given it would require a ton of “extra” work for these ADs and out of standard scope of work.

What PP says above is a correct picture of the private school world.

Plus, any change --- let alone a big change --- generates lots of work and potential for criticism for a group that really, really doesn't like either.

Anonymous wrote:ISL has A and AA in all sports other than track, cross-country, field hockey and swim/dive. There is elevation and relegation with the top team in the lower (A) division swapping divisions with the bottom team in the higher (AA) division. I've seen my daughters compete in the ISL over the past 8 years and the system generally works pretty well.

On the other hand, I competed in the IAC and will be damned if my school agrees to a merger with the MAC or WCAC.

What many not realize --- especially current parents --- is that there is a pecking order here. The school doesn't react to all the groups equally.

The key on this discussion is whose opinions really matter. Which groups and individuals would have the power to make significant changes.

I'm reminded of something I was told by a school higher-up a number of years ago. He said, "Parents come and parents go. But the Alumni are here forever."

It takes a parent a year or two to figure things out. When the senior year rolls around they start dialing out. The schools have seen this every four years for many decades. It never changes. The unhappy, noisy sports parents are here for a while and then graduate when their kids do. Because they feel they are "paying the bills" that they ought to be listened to. And they are, but it's well practiced listening and not doing.

The opinions of Alumni matter and those of certain alumni matter a lot. And this group may be more concerned about country club grill banter than they are "the experience of current student athletes".

There's also the opinions of the people in the Athletic Director's world that includes the coaches. The coaches want to win games and conference championships. Playing stronger teams isn't going to help them do either.

Then there's the Admissions Office who is concerned about selling perspective parents that they ought to compare their school to the really expensive ones and not the cheaper ones that are very good at athletics.

ISL has A and AA in all sports other than track, cross-country, field hockey and swim/dive. There is elevation and relegation with the top team in the lower (A) division swapping divisions with the bottom team in the higher (AA) division. I've seen my daughters compete in the ISL over the past 8 years and the system generally works pretty well.

On the other hand, I competed in the IAC and will be damned if my school agrees to a merger with the MAC or WCAC.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Drastic, but create one big league amongst the WCAC, IAC and MAC.

24 schools combined in those 3 leagues. Have 3 tiers of 8 with schools being in different tiers depending on sport. Example: St Albans in top tier for XC, Tennis and Soccer, but middle tier for lacrosse, basketball and football. Schools like Gonzaga & St. Johns may end up top tier for most if not all sports, but the competition would be strong b/c they'd play strongest league teams in each sport. Gonzaga vs Prep in soccer, baseball, lacrosse, swimming, etc... but different tiers for football.

Keep historical rivalries going + take advantage of geographical proximity when possible.

All leagues have significant disparity depending on sport - w/ this many teams across 3 tiers, much easier to create parity & good competition.

School heads and AD's wouldn't consider, but it seems like a reasonable approach.

So given schools wouldn't consider this revolutionary approach, then what's your point?

Is there any other league in any sport that has adopted this model? Sounds like a multi-sport version of English soccer.

Not a revolutionary approach. My point - it's an option that could makes sense and lead to good competition for the student athletes in each sport and allow for the retention of long standing rivalries (important to students and alums). It's not an earth shattering idea and just b/c it's unlikely school leadership would consider it doesn't mean it's not worth discussing - this is DCUM after all.

Just b/c school leaders prefer to stay in their comfort zone doesn't mean that's what's best for their students/athletes. And this approach exists all over the place at the HS level - locally, on the girls side, the ISL has added schools over time and teams play in AA or AAA in different sports depending on how competitive they are in each.

Schools are constantly changing causing shifts in the dynamics in athletic leagues. When the IAC was formed, Bullis + Episcopal were all-boys and had a similar student population to the other IAC schools. They went coed + Prep added 25 kids per class going from 400 total students to 500 and now there is more disparity in the # of available athletes which impacts competitiveness.... This whole discussion board is about what the IAC and MAC can do to address their issues and improve and WCAC has been mentioned throughout - not a big leap to look at a scenario that might make sense for everyone involved while also acknowledging that many AD's are leery of change b/c it requires extra time and effort.

Anonymous wrote:Drastic, but create one big league amongst the WCAC, IAC and MAC.

24 schools combined in those 3 leagues. Have 3 tiers of 8 with schools being in different tiers depending on sport. Example: St Albans in top tier for XC, Tennis and Soccer, but middle tier for lacrosse, basketball and football. Schools like Gonzaga & St. Johns may end up top tier for most if not all sports, but the competition would be strong b/c they'd play strongest league teams in each sport. Gonzaga vs Prep in soccer, baseball, lacrosse, swimming, etc... but different tiers for football.

Keep historical rivalries going + take advantage of geographical proximity when possible.

All leagues have significant disparity depending on sport - w/ this many teams across 3 tiers, much easier to create parity & good competition.

School heads and AD's wouldn't consider, but it seems like a reasonable approach.

So given schools wouldn't consider this revolutionary approach, then what's your point?

Is there any other league in any sport that has adopted this model? Sounds like a multi-sport version of English soccer.

Anonymous wrote:Prep wants nothing to do with competing against DeMatha, St Johns or Good Counsel on the regular.

Prep academically views themselves in the elite tier relative to its Catholic peers. Being affiliated with the WCAC would diminish its academic prestige.

And yes I do believe Prep should be playing in the WCAC however I don’t see them applying to be a full pledge member.

The Hoyas admin rather beat up on the teams from the IAC - schools they are now 3x larger

Depends on what their options are.

If even a couple of IAC schools want to leave and go to some sort of combination with some or all MAC schools, then GP may have to find a home.

They actually have the facilities and resources to compete in the WCAC, although they would have to decide to do it. Their boarding facilities would allow them to go beyond the DMV for impact athletes.

Drastic, but create one big league amongst the WCAC, IAC and MAC.

24 schools combined in those 3 leagues. Have 3 tiers of 8 with schools being in different tiers depending on sport. Example: St Albans in top tier for XC, Tennis and Soccer, but middle tier for lacrosse, basketball and football. Schools like Gonzaga & St. Johns may end up top tier for most if not all sports, but the competition would be strong b/c they'd play strongest league teams in each sport. Gonzaga vs Prep in soccer, baseball, lacrosse, swimming, etc... but different tiers for football.

Keep historical rivalries going + take advantage of geographical proximity when possible.

All leagues have significant disparity depending on sport - w/ this many teams across 3 tiers, much easier to create parity & good competition.

School heads and AD's wouldn't consider, but it seems like a reasonable approach.

Prep wants nothing to do with competing against DeMatha, St Johns or Good Counsel on the regular.

Prep academically views themselves in the elite tier relative to its Catholic peers. Being affiliated with the WCAC would diminish its academic prestige.

And yes I do believe Prep should be playing in the WCAC however I don’t see them applying to be a full pledge member.

The Hoyas admin rather beat up on the teams from the IAC - schools they are now 3x larger

Lacrosse is probably the sport in which it makes the least sense to merge the leagues. Potomac, St. James, and St. Andrews have all had years where they could compete and beat the bottom couple of IAC teams, but none of those teams really ever compete with the top of the IAC. A better proposal for lacrosse might be to flip Potomac to the IAC and SSSAS to the MAC. But Potomac would always be in the bottom couple just like SSSAS now days so not sure that moves the needle much in terms of ensuring competitive games.

Prep wouldn't be playing any MAC schools in most sports. Nothing to worry about there.
And while they have won the founders quite a bit lately, the totals for IAC titles over the last few years are surprisingly close between Prep, Landon, and STA.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Spalding is too big.

Over a thousand students in its Upper School.

Many would argue Georgetown Prep (550 boys) is too big compete whatever they call this new league

The serous downgrading in the level of competition that Prep would face in this new imagined conference would be another strong reason for them to move to the Catholic League.

Having to play DeMatha and St John's in everything might be daunting, but putting some of these MAC schools on the schedule isn't fair to them or Prep. They usually dominate the IAC All Sports Founders Cup. One imagines what these teams would do against the MAC schools.

About 20ish years ago, Prep football moved over to the MIAA - Prep was either kicked out or wanted an upgrade in competition.. It took about 3-4 years and they were back.

And if you think this is all new...here is a post from literally 15 years ago on this very website.

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/200926.page

I'm very familiar with the whole thing. And Prep was kicked out and had to almost reapply. The move to expel GP football was led by Bullis headmaster. Landon voted against it and continued to play Prep throughout.

This doesn't have much to do with the current situation. I guess you are trying to make the point that GP was expelled twice, which everyone with a knowledge of the area schools knows. It's also true that for at least 20 or 30 years, the smaller WCAC schools have been trying to come up with approaches that allow them to be in the same conference as the larger schools but not have to compete with them for championships in some sports.

The GP rivalry and relationship is extremely important to Landon. GP is their athletic measuring stick and a huge part of their tradition. Any arrangement that separates them from GP would have rough sledding. I suspect the STA people, including the alumni, also have feelings about playing Prep and Landon.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Spalding is too big.

Over a thousand students in its Upper School.

Many would argue Georgetown Prep (550 boys) is too big compete whatever they call this new league

The serous downgrading in the level of competition that Prep would face in this new imagined conference would be another strong reason for them to move to the Catholic League.

Having to play DeMatha and St John's in everything might be daunting, but putting some of these MAC schools on the schedule isn't fair to them or Prep. They usually dominate the IAC All Sports Founders Cup. One imagines what these teams would do against the MAC schools.

About 20ish years ago, Prep football moved over to the MIAA - Prep was either kicked out or wanted an upgrade in competition.. It took about 3-4 years and they were back.

And if you think this is all new...here is a post from literally 15 years ago on this very website.

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/200926.page