Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Firing should never be a surprise to the employee."

+1000. But it still is a good amount of times due to bad managers who don't give feedback. Don't fire this person unless verbally and in writing they've been given a clear if/then statement.

I can be fired because it’s Tuesday under a waxing moon. What is this verbal/in writing if/then statement of which you speak?

It’s unlikely that she hasn’t been put on notice about her performance.

Yes, you can be fired for any legal reason or no reason. But employment attorneys work on contingency, and it is easier to defend a lawsuit if you have documentation of performance issues.

Talk about perfection being the enemy of good.

OP, spend 30 minutes documenting your thoughts, rationale, and not meeting job requirements. Be specific. Then move on.

It's not fun, but it's better for the entire company in the long run. Her behavior is affecting many people. You have more obligation to them than you have to her.

My advice for the conversation: keep it clean. Meet in a neutral place like a conference room, so that neither party feels stuck or cornered. Don't get drawn into a discussion about the reasons - if you need to lay out the cause for legal or HR reasons, state it simply ("failure to meet deadlines"). If you get into specifics, the employee can argue or try to justify the behavior - don't let that happen, you've long since passed the time for that. Also don't have a long lead-in to it - get to the point. The less you can speak, the better. Sit down, state that she's being let go, and pause.

Have any HR paperwork ready, but don't expect that she'll be in a good frame of mind to actually read and comprehend it. Last paycheck, insurance, COBRA, all that stuff - give it to get too read when she's ready, and let her know where to go for questions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Firing should never be a surprise to the employee."

+1000. But it still is a good amount of times due to bad managers who don't give feedback. Don't fire this person unless verbally and in writing they've been given a clear if/then statement.

I can be fired because it’s Tuesday under a waxing moon. What is this verbal/in writing if/then statement of which you speak?

It’s unlikely that she hasn’t been put on notice about her performance.

Yes, you can be fired for any legal reason or no reason. But employment attorneys work on contingency, and it is easier to defend a lawsuit if you have documentation of performance issues.

Anonymous wrote:"Firing should never be a surprise to the employee."

+1000. But it still is a good amount of times due to bad managers who don't give feedback. Don't fire this person unless verbally and in writing they've been given a clear if/then statement.

I can be fired because it’s Tuesday under a waxing moon. What is this verbal/in writing if/then statement of which you speak?

It’s unlikely that she hasn’t been put on notice about her performance.

Do you have HR? Talk to HR on documentation need, script for firing, have them there.
Often HR reads script, tells them about last pay, process for COBRA, etc. and hands them paperwork.
That's it.

"Firing should never be a surprise to the employee."

+1000. But it still is a good amount of times due to bad managers who don't give feedback. Don't fire this person unless verbally and in writing they've been given a clear if/then statement.

Anonymous wrote:Is she making things harder for others (“others” can include you)? Has she shown a willingness to improve or grow (sounds like “no”)?

Look at it another way: If you fire her, you make an opportunity for someone else who is a better fit for the job.

Confer with HR about what you’re going to tell her. Report back to us and let us know how it goes.

Yes she is making things harder for others. In fact, two senior managers resigned in the past six months and pulled me aside on the way out saying she could not be trusted.

Is she making things harder for others (“others” can include you)? Has she shown a willingness to improve or grow (sounds like “no”)?

Look at it another way: If you fire her, you make an opportunity for someone else who is a better fit for the job.

Confer with HR about what you’re going to tell her. Report back to us and let us know how it goes.

If you are not the front line supervisor, I’m assuming your boss or HR will be in the room with you?

I haven’t had to fire anyone but I’ve put people on notice about last chances, or possible next steps. It’s awful but you just stick to the indisputable clear facts, and stay somber in your delivery, and that is that. The less emotion you feel about it, the better it will go.

That would not be fun, OP. I get it. But it’s also painful for you to have someone in that role who can’t meet the requirements of the position and won’t adapt to improve their performance.

I’m a manager and have never fired anyone either. Good luck!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op are you me? I had this exact same scenario go down a few weeks ago, right down to the adhd and obstinate disrespect of me when I called them out on a deadline. My kid also has severe adhd, and I was actually very sympathetic to begin with for this employee, but my sympathies waned as time went on and they were pissy with every minor interaction we had. I managed to avoid being the one who did the firing, but I did recommend the firer have a second person from hr in the room to steer the conversation because I was worried that bad things would get said or done.

That’s eerily similar. How did it go?

Fine in the end, from what I heard, though i'm still not unconvinced i'm going to wake up with a severed horse head in my bed.

Anonymous wrote:Op are you me? I had this exact same scenario go down a few weeks ago, right down to the adhd and obstinate disrespect of me when I called them out on a deadline. My kid also has severe adhd, and I was actually very sympathetic to begin with for this employee, but my sympathies waned as time went on and they were pissy with every minor interaction we had. I managed to avoid being the one who did the firing, but I did recommend the firer have a second person from hr in the room to steer the conversation because I was worried that bad things would get said or done.

That’s eerily similar. How did it go?

Op are you me? I had this exact same scenario go down a few weeks ago, right down to the adhd and obstinate disrespect of me when I called them out on a deadline. My kid also has severe adhd, and I was actually very sympathetic to begin with for this employee, but my sympathies waned as time went on and they were pissy with every minor interaction we had. I managed to avoid being the one who did the firing, but I did recommend the firer have a second person from hr in the room to steer the conversation because I was worried that bad things would get said or done.

Another way of thinking about it is the opportunity cost of keeping someone who isn't a fit. It hurts the whole team. But yes, I find it awful to do.

Thanks PPs. I’m curious what in my posts leads people to conclude she’s unstable? She is, but that’s not why I’m firing her and I tried not to emphasize her mental health in my description. Truthfully, I do feel there are red flags. The CEO will be present and will lead the proceedings. I’ll present factual documentation in writing without discussion. We’ve engaged HR and received legal advice on the grounds and manner of termination.