If your is old enough to be confirmed in the church, and your husband doesn’t take them to church on Christmas, you might be able to argue the religious angle if your child is truly religious and is willing to tell that to the judge that he needs to attend church on Christmas. But be prepared that the judge will just order that your ex take him to church if he asks to go.

Honestly, I can kind of see why you're divorced.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Make your holidays fun and exciting and not on the actual day. It will be helpful for when your child marries and potentially Christmas is split 4 ways.

Seriously. Healthcare workers and many others who don’t have a choice about working holidays do it every year.

OP and I hear what you’re saying but this isn’t a thread about healthcare workers and their sacrifices and I’m not a healthcare worker. People in some cultures don’t celebrate Christmas and don’t even have the day off, but it’s not like that’s relevant to the question I’m asking.

Instead of telling me that the days don’t matter or that other people have it worse, I am trying to find someone who can tell me how they managed it when the days do actually matter to them. If it didn’t matter to me I wouldn’t be here asking my question and would have already arbitrarily divided everything up and calls it a day!

The day does matter to me, a lot. But my children spend every other Christmas at their fathers house because unless your STBX agrees that he doesn’t ever want Christmas, you’re going to have to alternate years. My kids are usually in their Christmas pageant which me and my ex both go and watch at 4pm Christmas Eve, and we swap right afterwords (so in my year, they’re at their dads from when school lets out until after the pageant, and then they come to me and then go back to dads on New Year’s Eve and they have new years as their holiday with gifts, and on alternate years, it’s the opposite)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think based on what you said, Christmas is going to be contentious. It’s the only one he cares about, and I’m assuming you do too.

Is there some bone you can throw him on the other holidays? Maybe say he can always have the kids on Labor Day or spring break? Give him fun travel three day weekends like Columbus Day that you don’t care about? Then you can probably get Fourth of July, Thanksgiving and Memorial Day, especially he historically usually worked on those days.

But you’re going to have to give something up on Christmas, and it’s prob going to have to be roughly 50/50. So think hard about what you’d prefer. Alternative years where you get everything (vs nothing). A big chunk of Christmas break while he gets Christmas Day and you just shift your celebration to the 26/27? He gets Christmas Eve and evening while you get Christmas morning? Or do you split Christmas Day?

One thing I’d encourage you to do is think long term. One day, your kids will be grown and married and you’ll have split holidays AGAIN with your in laws. This is a big point in favor of shifting days. My parents divorced, and my mom chose Thanksgiving every year, and gave up Christmas. We just did “fake Christmas” on 12/26 with her. She definitely had some sadness about it. But now? She gets her local kid and grandkid for the well established fake Christmas on 12/26 every single year, and the non local kid every other year, and never has anyone rushing out to get to another dinner or something. So it’s GREAT for her now, while dad is getting Christmas less than half the time because of all the in-law competition.

Yes, Christmas will absolutely be contentious. My vent is the one that I'm sure anyone in my situation would have: it seems totally unfair that DC should have to go sit in an empty furnished rental on Christmas Day with DH watching TV when they could be in their childhood home with their pets among friends and family and listening to Christmas carols on our favorite radio station before it goes back to its regular format on the 26th. And Christmas Eve would be also rough, because DC would miss church and the activities we usually do that day. DH's life and effort at celebration is perfectly compatible with the 26th/27th, but of course I can't write that into a proposed schedule for an evaluator.

I would love to tempt him with Spring break because I don't really care about it, but in our district DC's birthday is almost always during spring break.

DH might be happy to get 3 day weekends plus breaks long enough for extensive travel so he could be with DC but not have to deal with everyday chores, meal planning, etc. I wonder how people deal with this as DCs reach their teen years? DC is going to be very reluctant to be missing friends, sports practices, games, etc. every school break or long weekend, and would probably have to give up their club sport or would get cut the next tryout cycle if they started missing competitions.

Lots to think about.

Oh, come on with the emotional manipulation. Spotify Free Christmas channels and/or YouTube Christmas channels. “Problem” solved.

This is harsh, but, I have to agree (different poster). And Op- if your child loves that, he can still do that, just at his dad’s house on those years. The most important thing is to not make him feel like he is missing out on Christmas when he’s at dad’s house. Don’t dump that sort of stuff on him. You will miss him immensely, yes. And of course he will miss you too just like he will miss his dad when he’s at your house on those years. But to frame it as, “it’s Christmas at my house and sitting around in a furnished rental doing nothing at dad’s house” is not going to help your child adjust to the divorce. Right? Let him and dad make their own Christmas traditions without inserting your own feelings into it because if you coach your child to feel the same way you do- then he will absolutely feel like every other year he is missing out. And that’s a terrible way to grow up. Let him frame it in his mind as “this will be different at dads house, but just as fun in its own way” so that he doesn’t feel the same loss that you feel.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Make your holidays fun and exciting and not on the actual day. It will be helpful for when your child marries and potentially Christmas is split 4 ways.

Seriously. Healthcare workers and many others who don’t have a choice about working holidays do it every year.

OP and I hear what you’re saying but this isn’t a thread about healthcare workers and their sacrifices and I’m not a healthcare worker. People in some cultures don’t celebrate Christmas and don’t even have the day off, but it’s not like that’s relevant to the question I’m asking.

Instead of telling me that the days don’t matter or that other people have it worse, I am trying to find someone who can tell me how they managed it when the days do actually matter to them. If it didn’t matter to me I wouldn’t be here asking my question and would have already arbitrarily divided everything up and calls it a day!

Anonymous wrote:Make your holidays fun and exciting and not on the actual day. It will be helpful for when your child marries and potentially Christmas is split 4 ways.

Seriously. Healthcare workers and many others who don’t have a choice about working holidays do it every year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think based on what you said, Christmas is going to be contentious. It’s the only one he cares about, and I’m assuming you do too.

Is there some bone you can throw him on the other holidays? Maybe say he can always have the kids on Labor Day or spring break? Give him fun travel three day weekends like Columbus Day that you don’t care about? Then you can probably get Fourth of July, Thanksgiving and Memorial Day, especially he historically usually worked on those days.

But you’re going to have to give something up on Christmas, and it’s prob going to have to be roughly 50/50. So think hard about what you’d prefer. Alternative years where you get everything (vs nothing). A big chunk of Christmas break while he gets Christmas Day and you just shift your celebration to the 26/27? He gets Christmas Eve and evening while you get Christmas morning? Or do you split Christmas Day?

One thing I’d encourage you to do is think long term. One day, your kids will be grown and married and you’ll have split holidays AGAIN with your in laws. This is a big point in favor of shifting days. My parents divorced, and my mom chose Thanksgiving every year, and gave up Christmas. We just did “fake Christmas” on 12/26 with her. She definitely had some sadness about it. But now? She gets her local kid and grandkid for the well established fake Christmas on 12/26 every single year, and the non local kid every other year, and never has anyone rushing out to get to another dinner or something. So it’s GREAT for her now, while dad is getting Christmas less than half the time because of all the in-law competition.

Yes, Christmas will absolutely be contentious. My vent is the one that I'm sure anyone in my situation would have: it seems totally unfair that DC should have to go sit in an empty furnished rental on Christmas Day with DH watching TV when they could be in their childhood home with their pets among friends and family and listening to Christmas carols on our favorite radio station before it goes back to its regular format on the 26th. And Christmas Eve would be also rough, because DC would miss church and the activities we usually do that day. DH's life and effort at celebration is perfectly compatible with the 26th/27th, but of course I can't write that into a proposed schedule for an evaluator.

I would love to tempt him with Spring break because I don't really care about it, but in our district DC's birthday is almost always during spring break.

DH might be happy to get 3 day weekends plus breaks long enough for extensive travel so he could be with DC but not have to deal with everyday chores, meal planning, etc. I wonder how people deal with this as DCs reach their teen years? DC is going to be very reluctant to be missing friends, sports practices, games, etc. every school break or long weekend, and would probably have to give up their club sport or would get cut the next tryout cycle if they started missing competitions.

Lots to think about.

Oh, come on with the emotional manipulation. Spotify Free Christmas channels and/or YouTube Christmas channels. “Problem” solved.

Anonymous wrote:As someone who splits holidays with an ex, we wrote our agreement with a default split that went into effect if we couldn't amicably work things out. It alternates the major holidays (with one person having Easter and Thanksgiving one year, and Christmas the next) and lists specific dates for exchanges over winter break. But the agreement is written so that we can change that arrangement based on mutual agreement which we do almost every year. We split winter break, but we adjust specific dates based on travel plans, etc. We're supposed to alternate Easter, but it's not a big deal for either of us, so we usually just base it on our normal alternating weekend schedule. One year we swapped (so we each got Christmas 2 years in a row) to accommodate spending time with family who were about to move overseas.

I guess my point is that you can write a schedule in such a way that offers a split but leaves a lot of room for customization.

Honestly, it's been kind of fun the years I have the kids the non-Christmas week. We pick a different day to celebrate and still do all of the same traditions. Some years we do a vacation--which we wouldn't do during Christmas week. It's kind of liberating. Since Christmas was plopped onto a random date originally anyway, it's not like it really matters. Adopting this attitude will serve you well when your kid is a kid, and when they are an adult and you don't want to make holidays a fraught experience.

Please say more? OP and probably this wouldn’t apply in my situation unless things change substantially, but I’m curious how you worked things out. How far in advance did you discuss holidays? Who usually brought up the conversation as you neared a specific holiday/event that you needed flexibility for?

I’ve been the one initiating every conversation about custody so far, so I wouldn’t see this working because it would feel too much to STBX like I was running the show. But I’m curious how more functional families approach these things and how I might adapt those ways to my life in the future.

Make your holidays fun and exciting and not on the actual day. It will be helpful for when your child marries and potentially Christmas is split 4 ways.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about he picks up on Christmas morning at about 10am? I LOVE Christmas, but the real celebration is Christmas eve and then Christmas morning. After that we just relax and put together new toys.

Maybe in your family, but OP here and after Christmas morning DC and my favorite part is to wake up to Santa, then after seeing all the presents and calling relatives, we read new books under the tree until the afternoon, when we prep to have Christmas dinner with friends. The quiet middle of Christmas Day is one of the best parts of the entire year.

I'm realizing from this thread that it is very difficult if not impossible to seek outside advice about holidays because everyone celebrates so differently and has different aspects of their traditions that they're happy to flex or can't budge on. So even if this thread isn't solving my dilemma, it's helping me see how clinically the parent evaluator or judges or mediators might see the situation and how unimportant our traditions will be to any outsider.

The thought just hit me that I just went from a life where I thought I had 8 more Christmases with my child before college to maybe only 4. I'm heartbroken to have my only DC's childhood fast-forwarded on me by STBX and his decision.

Crazy that marriage and having a baby take two people, but one person can unilaterally upend an entire family for the rest of their lives.

Hey op. I’m trying to be kind but everything you listed about Christmas Day is just a nice to have and can be done other days. See and call family on Christmas Eve or Christmas morning at 8am. You can read books anytime. I leave my tree up until epiphany so you have time. I think giving up Christmas at 10am is very fair.

As someone who splits holidays with an ex, we wrote our agreement with a default split that went into effect if we couldn't amicably work things out. It alternates the major holidays (with one person having Easter and Thanksgiving one year, and Christmas the next) and lists specific dates for exchanges over winter break. But the agreement is written so that we can change that arrangement based on mutual agreement which we do almost every year. We split winter break, but we adjust specific dates based on travel plans, etc. We're supposed to alternate Easter, but it's not a big deal for either of us, so we usually just base it on our normal alternating weekend schedule. One year we swapped (so we each got Christmas 2 years in a row) to accommodate spending time with family who were about to move overseas.

I guess my point is that you can write a schedule in such a way that offers a split but leaves a lot of room for customization.

Honestly, it's been kind of fun the years I have the kids the non-Christmas week. We pick a different day to celebrate and still do all of the same traditions. Some years we do a vacation--which we wouldn't do during Christmas week. It's kind of liberating. Since Christmas was plopped onto a random date originally anyway, it's not like it really matters. Adopting this attitude will serve you well when your kid is a kid, and when they are an adult and you don't want to make holidays a fraught experience.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It doesn't matter that you think your way of celebrating is better or more fun. Sorry but its not an exercise in who's Christmas plans are better. Stop thinking that matters. You need to think of some way to alternate Christmas that looks approximately fair. Either alternate 1st and 2nd week of the winter break or switch on Dec. 26 every year. In the years your kids are with you ex you make Dec. 26 your Christmas or make NYE your big celebration. I would also recommend you alternate spring break. The rest of the holidays are less important.

I think saying NYE can be a big celebration as an alternative to Christmas Eve is something that works in a secular family but is an inappropriate and pale substitution if a child and one parent are religious.

Yes, but 1) the child is likely too young to be “religious”, and more importantly, 2) I have a feeling that mom’s devotion to her faith is being exaggerated to justify getting Christmas Eve/Christmas every year. Usually people that are super religious don’t marry agnostics or get divorced.

Does Mom go to church? Sure, but I don’t think this is significant enough to deny dad parenting time.

DC and I are catholic, DC goes to catholic school and goes to mass with me every weekend and is an altar server and all that. All of this is stuff than STBX was on board with. STBX is Episcopalian but non-observant, but not agnostic. He likes having a religious kid and the connection to catholic school circles, he likes making his parents happy by having a religious kid, but doesn’t like the obligations of mass, religious ed, etc. for himself, so I do all that.

I’m definitely not a crazy catholic since I married outside of my faith and only have one kid, but divorce definitely wasn’t my choice.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It doesn't matter that you think your way of celebrating is better or more fun. Sorry but its not an exercise in who's Christmas plans are better. Stop thinking that matters. You need to think of some way to alternate Christmas that looks approximately fair. Either alternate 1st and 2nd week of the winter break or switch on Dec. 26 every year. In the years your kids are with you ex you make Dec. 26 your Christmas or make NYE your big celebration. I would also recommend you alternate spring break. The rest of the holidays are less important.

I think saying NYE can be a big celebration as an alternative to Christmas Eve is something that works in a secular family but is an inappropriate and pale substitution if a child and one parent are religious.

Yes, but 1) the child is likely too young to be “religious”, and more importantly, 2) I have a feeling that mom’s devotion to her faith is being exaggerated to justify getting Christmas Eve/Christmas every year. Usually people that are super religious don’t marry agnostics or get divorced.

Does Mom go to church? Sure, but I don’t think this is significant enough to deny dad parenting time.

A lot of this is you projecting what you value about holidays, combined with resentment towards your STBX.

The reasons for you having sole physical custody may be relevant, but assuming Dad is just incompetent and not negligent or abusive:

Courts make decisions based on what is in the best interest of the child, while preserving parental rights. I think you should keep these two things in the front of your mind:

1) A stable consistent schedule is in your child’s best interest,
2) having a strong relationship with both parents is in your child’s best interest.

For me, the day-to-day school year stability is paramount for a kid’s wellbeing. It is really hard on a kid to go between houses during the school week, especially as they get further along in school.

As for holidays, birthdays, etc, you will need to let go and give stuff up. Like PPs have said, you and your husband will make new traditions, which will include celebrating birthdays and holidays on different days.

I would offer the following:
Ordinarily, child is with mom Sunday-Th nights, and with dad every other weekend, F/Saturday nights. (If pushed, give dad every Thursday night, so EOW he will have three nights in a row.)
I would automatically swap long weekends (define these: MLK, Presidents Day, Memorial Day, Labor Day, Columbus Day if your school district takes it) with Dad, if it falls on Mom’s time, with Mom taking the preceding or following weekend (if pushed, you just “give” these weekends to dad without a payback, because you are getting much much more time).
I would swap Thanksgiving break (from when school lets out until Sunday night), and Spring Break (when school lets out until Sunday night) over the school year (not a calendar year). One year you get Thanksgiving and he gets Spring Break. The next he gets Thanksgiving Break and you get Spring Break.
I would divide winter break in half. You get the first half (which will usually includes Christmas); he gets the second half. (If pushed, alternate.)
Then I would give each parent two weeks of vacation time in the summer, where you deviate from the normal schedule. Can be taken consecutively (since he needs to travel to a new country, right?), but doesn’t have to be. In odd years, Mom gets to pick her vacations weeks first. In even years, Dad gets to pick his vacation weeks first.

Be very specific about when time starts and ends, and how the swap is executed, and make sure it makes sense for your kid. I prefer 5 pm Sunday swaps because they allow the child time to come home, eat, finish homework if needed, and prepare for the week, but some families prefer swapping after dinner Sunday.

OP, put forward the schedule you want except throw him a few bones. Then be willing to negotiate.

It sounds like you care about Thanksgiving and Easter and he does not. So maybe suggest you take Thanksgiving and Easter and you guys split Christmas every other year.

Or you could suggest he gets your kid from Dec 26 through New Years Day every year, and you get kid from when school lets out through Dec 25. Or you guys could alternate that every year.

Not sure what to say about the random three day weekends. How much do you/he care about those? I mean who really cares about Memorial Day?