While I am sure there are many students at Williams who wish they were at HYP, my dd turned down one of those Ivies, as well as other T10 universities, to go to Williams - and she knows a number of other kids who were in similar positions. Williams is a very specific school - you should go because you *want* to be there, not because you don't have higher ranked choices. The graded paper is very important to them - if applying, I would definitely include that.

From our HS, the kids who go to WASP schools have higher average GPAs and test scores than the ones who go to Harvard, Yale or Princeton (and much higher than the ones who go to Columbia or Cornell). It is a self selecting group - the ones who want Harvard but don't get it end up at schools like UChicago or WashU.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep. No other supplements. But don’t worry, your DC probably won’t get in unless he has ivy stats

Very ambitious. Williams stats are highly under an ivy. Let’s be honest.

Don't be daft. Williams draws from the same pool. My DC was denied at Williams but accepted to two Ivies. That said, I didn't like Williams's lack of supplemental essays, which I think would have increased my DC's chances. (DC ended up at a preferred school, so it all worked out.)

Williams does not draw from the same pool at all. The type of kids we see go off to these top lacs from DD’s hs couldn’t have made it into ivies, but they have some quirk that lacs like.

This isn’t true….you can tell yourself that but objectively it isn’t true.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep. No other supplements. But don’t worry, your DC probably won’t get in unless he has ivy stats

Very ambitious. Williams stats are highly under an ivy. Let’s be honest.

Don't be daft. Williams draws from the same pool. My DC was denied at Williams but accepted to two Ivies. That said, I didn't like Williams's lack of supplemental essays, which I think would have increased my DC's chances. (DC ended up at a preferred school, so it all worked out.)

Williams does not draw from the same pool at all. The type of kids we see go off to these top lacs from DD’s hs couldn’t have made it into ivies, but they have some quirk that lacs like.

Okay, you've changed my mind, but only because I'm confident you've done the empirical research to confirm that your anecdotal observations from your local high school (which I'm sure includes free access to other student's FERPA-protected application information) are representative of all high schools across the nation and globe.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep. No other supplements. But don’t worry, your DC probably won’t get in unless he has ivy stats

Very ambitious. Williams stats are highly under an ivy. Let’s be honest.

Don't be daft. Williams draws from the same pool. My DC was denied at Williams but accepted to two Ivies. That said, I didn't like Williams's lack of supplemental essays, which I think would have increased my DC's chances. (DC ended up at a preferred school, so it all worked out.)

100%. People don’t like to hear it but the T10 and the T10 SLACs draw from the same pool. There is nothing academically that separates the kids. Mine turned down Cornell for Middlebury. Might have been different for Dartmouth but Cornell just didn’t feel right in the end.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not to hijack the thread but this test optional world has been really confusing for my bright - but not brilliant -- kid. They have a 1450 which now seems too low for a lot of schools that would have been reasonable targets and reaches a few years ago. Now they're worried that they won't be considered with such a "low" score, yet not submitting scores will read as though they bombed the SAT.

Submit the 1450.

Data says otherwise. However, until institutions have to report more granularly, you are in the dark, absent access to the data from other sources. For example, what is the percentage of recruited athletes who are TO at Williams? If it is a large percentage, then by default the SAT range of 1500-1535-1560 is somewhat valid for a non-athlete. The 1450 will get you rejected if you are not an athlete. At that SAT point, since only 47 students in Williams Freshman class had below a 1500, your odds are long, really long, with a 1450.

At least half of the athletes are above the school averages. NESCAC recruiting rules pretty much require it. My kid was recruited by Williams and Admissions required a graded research paper as part of the pre-read package.

Not about graded papers, but rather the percentage of athletes submitting SAT scores. That number is nowhere to be found. Not confined to Williams; no one publishes that number. I

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep. No other supplements. But don’t worry, your DC probably won’t get in unless he has ivy stats

Very ambitious. Williams stats are highly under an ivy. Let’s be honest.

Don't be daft. Williams draws from the same pool. My DC was denied at Williams but accepted to two Ivies. That said, I didn't like Williams's lack of supplemental essays, which I think would have increased my DC's chances. (DC ended up at a preferred school, so it all worked out.)

Williams does not draw from the same pool at all. The type of kids we see go off to these top lacs from DD’s hs couldn’t have made it into ivies, but they have some quirk that lacs like.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not to hijack the thread but this test optional world has been really confusing for my bright - but not brilliant -- kid. They have a 1450 which now seems too low for a lot of schools that would have been reasonable targets and reaches a few years ago. Now they're worried that they won't be considered with such a "low" score, yet not submitting scores will read as though they bombed the SAT.

Submit the 1450.

Data says otherwise. However, until institutions have to report more granularly, you are in the dark, absent access to the data from other sources. For example, what is the percentage of recruited athletes who are TO at Williams? If it is a large percentage, then by default the SAT range of 1500-1535-1560 is somewhat valid for a non-athlete. The 1450 will get you rejected if you are not an athlete. At that SAT point, since only 47 students in Williams Freshman class had below a 1500, your odds are long, really long, with a 1450.

At least half of the athletes are above the school averages. NESCAC recruiting rules pretty much require it. My kid was recruited by Williams and Admissions required a graded research paper as part of the pre-read package.

graded essay is part of the regular admissions package too. it's "optiona" but .. not really

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep. No other supplements. But don’t worry, your DC probably won’t get in unless he has ivy stats

Very ambitious. Williams stats are highly under an ivy. Let’s be honest.

Don't be daft. Williams draws from the same pool. My DC was denied at Williams but accepted to two Ivies. That said, I didn't like Williams's lack of supplemental essays, which I think would have increased my DC's chances. (DC ended up at a preferred school, so it all worked out.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not to hijack the thread but this test optional world has been really confusing for my bright - but not brilliant -- kid. They have a 1450 which now seems too low for a lot of schools that would have been reasonable targets and reaches a few years ago. Now they're worried that they won't be considered with such a "low" score, yet not submitting scores will read as though they bombed the SAT.

Submit the 1450.

Data says otherwise. However, until institutions have to report more granularly, you are in the dark, absent access to the data from other sources. For example, what is the percentage of recruited athletes who are TO at Williams? If it is a large percentage, then by default the SAT range of 1500-1535-1560 is somewhat valid for a non-athlete. The 1450 will get you rejected if you are not an athlete. At that SAT point, since only 47 students in Williams Freshman class had below a 1500, your odds are long, really long, with a 1450.

At least half of the athletes are above the school averages. NESCAC recruiting rules pretty much require it. My kid was recruited by Williams and Admissions required a graded research paper as part of the pre-read package.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:corrected
Williams similar to all Ivies. TO skewed SAT

prior to test optional 66% submit sat, 47% submit act
2019-2020
25%-50%-75%
1420 1500 1540

2024-2025
35% submit sat
25%-50%-75%
1500 1535 1560
report

Our private school-based counselor outside DMV advised we submit SAT at 50% of pre-covid time - which would be 1500 or over. Our DS had 1510 so we submitted that score ED.

Dartmouth, in their explanation of going back to testing, said too many people weren't submitted scores that would benefit them.

Look at college stats pre-covid, look at current stats, and look at where your stats compare to the school profile that will be submitted. If the schools average is 1200 and you have a 1450, submit it. Also, I think 25% or over for school data. 50% is really high

Anonymous wrote:corrected
Williams similar to all Ivies. TO skewed SAT

prior to test optional 66% submit sat, 47% submit act
2019-2020
25%-50%-75%
1420 1500 1540

2024-2025
35% submit sat
25%-50%-75%
1500 1535 1560
report

Our private school-based counselor outside DMV advised we submit SAT at 50% of pre-covid time - which would be 1500 or over. Our DS had 1510 so we submitted that score ED.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not to hijack the thread but this test optional world has been really confusing for my bright - but not brilliant -- kid. They have a 1450 which now seems too low for a lot of schools that would have been reasonable targets and reaches a few years ago. Now they're worried that they won't be considered with such a "low" score, yet not submitting scores will read as though they bombed the SAT.

Submit the 1450.

Data says otherwise. However, until institutions have to report more granularly, you are in the dark, absent access to the data from other sources. For example, what is the percentage of recruited athletes who are TO at Williams? If it is a large percentage, then by default the SAT range of 1500-1535-1560 is somewhat valid for a non-athlete. The 1450 will get you rejected if you are not an athlete. At that SAT point, since only 47 students in Williams Freshman class had below a 1500, your odds are long, really long, with a 1450.

The data is worthless. Test scores are increasingly in vogue.

I think you have to submit a graded paper to be in the running for Williams.

In some ways, I prefer this. I think it's a more honest example of the work you do while in school, not the work you do to get into a school. My older son applied a few years ago and, while happy enough with the graded paper he submitted, didn't have the confidence with other apps where he could write essays for each college. fully polished. papers he wrote for school were sometimes done the night before kind of thing.

He was WL at Williams and is at Princeton now. Williams is a tough admit.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not to hijack the thread but this test optional world has been really confusing for my bright - but not brilliant -- kid. They have a 1450 which now seems too low for a lot of schools that would have been reasonable targets and reaches a few years ago. Now they're worried that they won't be considered with such a "low" score, yet not submitting scores will read as though they bombed the SAT.

Submit the 1450.

Data says otherwise. However, until institutions have to report more granularly, you are in the dark, absent access to the data from other sources. For example, what is the percentage of recruited athletes who are TO at Williams? If it is a large percentage, then by default the SAT range of 1500-1535-1560 is somewhat valid for a non-athlete. The 1450 will get you rejected if you are not an athlete. At that SAT point, since only 47 students in Williams Freshman class had below a 1500, your odds are long, really long, with a 1450.

Disagree. Submit 1450 and up. It will look far worse not to. 1450 meets the benchmark of being bright enough, and if it's supplemented with an otherwise excellent application via letters of rec, activities, and overall presentation, it can get you in to top schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know if this is legit or not, but at least one 3rd party college counselor said that for low-acceptance schools with no supplementals, you should still write an email to the AO that covers your territory and basically write a supplemental essay in your email.

It can just be effectively "Why Williams".

I don't know if this is true...but at the same time I can believe it's true and just adds to the BS.

Sorry, but that seems like terrible advice. If they wanted a supplemental essay, they would make it part of the application. Getting a bunch of unsolicited emails from applicants sounds like it would just create more work for admissions and be a mark against the applicant who didn’t follow instructions.

You may be correct...however, the AO's receive tons of unsolicited emails, so that's part of the job. Kids will send their quarter grades, ask tons of questions about all kinds of things, etc. They even answer questions from lots of kids who don't end up applying (though, admittedly they probably have even more junior staff responding).