Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP. You might like the book "Moral Mazes" by Robert Jackall. Or you can just read the AI summary, lol.

Moral Mazes: The World of Corporate Managers is a 1988 non-fiction book by sociologist Robert Jackall that examines the moral and social world of corporate managers in the United States. Based on fieldwork and interviews, the book argues that corporate bureaucracy shapes managers' moral consciousness, leading to a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset where personal integrity is often compromised for success. Key findings include the importance of public performance, the manipulation of symbols, and the intense competition for status within these organizations.

Key themes and findings

Bureaucracy and moral consciousness: Jackall argues that the structure of large corporations regularizes daily life, subordinates individuals to authority, and fosters a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset that can lead to a compromise of conventional morality.

Public performance: Managers must maintain a "cheerfully-bland public face" while hiding their true intentions and engaging in intense competition. This involves a form of "emotional labor" where they sublimate their own needs to meet the demands of others.

Pragmatism over principle: In this environment, moral questions are often treated as practical concerns or public relations issues, and success depends on a manager's ability to be a "dexterous symbol manipulator".

Competition and hierarchy: The corporate world creates an elaborate status hierarchy that fuels intense competition for prestige, making organizational rules and procedures paramount guides for behavior.

The "moral maze": The title reflects the idea that managers must navigate a complex and often contradictory environment where they are constantly making compromises to succeed, leading them to question how to maintain personal integrity.

Appreciate this very much. Thank you

PP. You're welcome. It is a book about old school F500 corporations but makes general sociological connections. It was recommended by a Purdue professor of engineering ethics who gave a talk at my employer's main R&D facility.

I liked the book a lot. It pretty much concludes that corporate life is inherently feudal.

My most successful peer female MBA went to a top b-school. I went to one in the Top 20. My career has flatlined. I have well-adjusted kids who love me and value my guidance. My peer is a VP and only has a dog. I've known her since kids were something we both spoke of having. I wouldn't trade places.

Your kids won't think you're a D unless you treat your family badly (spouse as well as kids). My kids were fairly accepting of having a working mom. They are both boys so I think it's good that my future DIL's will have had a path blazed for them IF they want to work. Kids know love when they see it.

Highly doubt things will work out as you expect. I say that as my wifes Mom had a easy full time job growing up as was 9-5pm and five minutes from house. She resented her Mother a lot for working. Walking home from games by her self, being at games after school no one in stands, getting flu at school and having to walk home in rain deadly sick. Her Dad had a 50 hour a week job so not around much. Then her Mom had a third kid ten years younger than her and her Mom forced her and sister into beting the baby sitter for that kid all summer and after school while she worked. She swore she would never do that to her children. So she was a SAHM.

My wife thinks if her Mom was a SAHM she most likely would have not stayed home with kids. But her experience of her Mom doing it was awful.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP. You might like the book "Moral Mazes" by Robert Jackall. Or you can just read the AI summary, lol.

Moral Mazes: The World of Corporate Managers is a 1988 non-fiction book by sociologist Robert Jackall that examines the moral and social world of corporate managers in the United States. Based on fieldwork and interviews, the book argues that corporate bureaucracy shapes managers' moral consciousness, leading to a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset where personal integrity is often compromised for success. Key findings include the importance of public performance, the manipulation of symbols, and the intense competition for status within these organizations.

Key themes and findings

Bureaucracy and moral consciousness: Jackall argues that the structure of large corporations regularizes daily life, subordinates individuals to authority, and fosters a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset that can lead to a compromise of conventional morality.

Public performance: Managers must maintain a "cheerfully-bland public face" while hiding their true intentions and engaging in intense competition. This involves a form of "emotional labor" where they sublimate their own needs to meet the demands of others.

Pragmatism over principle: In this environment, moral questions are often treated as practical concerns or public relations issues, and success depends on a manager's ability to be a "dexterous symbol manipulator".

Competition and hierarchy: The corporate world creates an elaborate status hierarchy that fuels intense competition for prestige, making organizational rules and procedures paramount guides for behavior.

The "moral maze": The title reflects the idea that managers must navigate a complex and often contradictory environment where they are constantly making compromises to succeed, leading them to question how to maintain personal integrity.

Appreciate this very much. Thank you

PP. You're welcome. It is a book about old school F500 corporations but makes general sociological connections. It was recommended by a Purdue professor of engineering ethics who gave a talk at my employer's main R&D facility.

I liked the book a lot. It pretty much concludes that corporate life is inherently feudal.

My most successful peer female MBA went to a top b-school. I went to one in the Top 20. My career has flatlined. I have well-adjusted kids who love me and value my guidance. My peer is a VP and only has a dog. I've known her since kids were something we both spoke of having. I wouldn't trade places.

Your kids won't think you're a D unless you treat your family badly (spouse as well as kids). My kids were fairly accepting of having a working mom. They are both boys so I think it's good that my future DIL's will have had a path blazed for them IF they want to work. Kids know love when they see it.

Highly doubt things will work out as you expect. I say that as my wifes Mom had a easy full time job growing up as was 9-5pm and five minutes from house. She resented her Mother a lot for working. Walking home from games by her self, being at games after school no one in stands, getting flu at school and having to walk home in rain deadly sick. Her Dad had a 50 hour a week job so not around much. Then her Mom had a third kid ten years younger than her and her Mom forced her and sister into beting the baby sitter for that kid all summer and after school while she worked. She swore she would never do that to her children. So she was a SAHM.

My wife thinks if her Mom was a SAHM she most likely would have not stayed home with kids. But her experience of her Mom doing it was awful.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP. You might like the book "Moral Mazes" by Robert Jackall. Or you can just read the AI summary, lol.

Moral Mazes: The World of Corporate Managers is a 1988 non-fiction book by sociologist Robert Jackall that examines the moral and social world of corporate managers in the United States. Based on fieldwork and interviews, the book argues that corporate bureaucracy shapes managers' moral consciousness, leading to a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset where personal integrity is often compromised for success. Key findings include the importance of public performance, the manipulation of symbols, and the intense competition for status within these organizations.

Key themes and findings

Bureaucracy and moral consciousness: Jackall argues that the structure of large corporations regularizes daily life, subordinates individuals to authority, and fosters a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset that can lead to a compromise of conventional morality.

Public performance: Managers must maintain a "cheerfully-bland public face" while hiding their true intentions and engaging in intense competition. This involves a form of "emotional labor" where they sublimate their own needs to meet the demands of others.

Pragmatism over principle: In this environment, moral questions are often treated as practical concerns or public relations issues, and success depends on a manager's ability to be a "dexterous symbol manipulator".

Competition and hierarchy: The corporate world creates an elaborate status hierarchy that fuels intense competition for prestige, making organizational rules and procedures paramount guides for behavior.

The "moral maze": The title reflects the idea that managers must navigate a complex and often contradictory environment where they are constantly making compromises to succeed, leading them to question how to maintain personal integrity.

Appreciate this very much. Thank you

PP. You're welcome. It is a book about old school F500 corporations but makes general sociological connections. It was recommended by a Purdue professor of engineering ethics who gave a talk at my employer's main R&D facility.

I liked the book a lot. It pretty much concludes that corporate life is inherently feudal.

My most successful peer female MBA went to a top b-school. I went to one in the Top 20. My career has flatlined. I have well-adjusted kids who love me and value my guidance. My peer is a VP and only has a dog. I've known her since kids were something we both spoke of having. I wouldn't trade places.

Your kids won't think you're a D unless you treat your family badly (spouse as well as kids). My kids were fairly accepting of having a working mom. They are both boys so I think it's good that my future DIL's will have had a path blazed for them IF they want to work. Kids know love when they see it.

I’m sure the successful VP would absolutely NOT want your life as you flatlined and having the dog is awesome! Sounds like she has a great life and values her freedom. She has won at life!👍

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP. You might like the book "Moral Mazes" by Robert Jackall. Or you can just read the AI summary, lol.

Moral Mazes: The World of Corporate Managers is a 1988 non-fiction book by sociologist Robert Jackall that examines the moral and social world of corporate managers in the United States. Based on fieldwork and interviews, the book argues that corporate bureaucracy shapes managers' moral consciousness, leading to a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset where personal integrity is often compromised for success. Key findings include the importance of public performance, the manipulation of symbols, and the intense competition for status within these organizations.

Key themes and findings

Bureaucracy and moral consciousness: Jackall argues that the structure of large corporations regularizes daily life, subordinates individuals to authority, and fosters a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset that can lead to a compromise of conventional morality.

Public performance: Managers must maintain a "cheerfully-bland public face" while hiding their true intentions and engaging in intense competition. This involves a form of "emotional labor" where they sublimate their own needs to meet the demands of others.

Pragmatism over principle: In this environment, moral questions are often treated as practical concerns or public relations issues, and success depends on a manager's ability to be a "dexterous symbol manipulator".

Competition and hierarchy: The corporate world creates an elaborate status hierarchy that fuels intense competition for prestige, making organizational rules and procedures paramount guides for behavior.

The "moral maze": The title reflects the idea that managers must navigate a complex and often contradictory environment where they are constantly making compromises to succeed, leading them to question how to maintain personal integrity.

Appreciate this very much. Thank you

PP. You're welcome. It is a book about old school F500 corporations but makes general sociological connections. It was recommended by a Purdue professor of engineering ethics who gave a talk at my employer's main R&D facility.

I liked the book a lot. It pretty much concludes that corporate life is inherently feudal.

My most successful peer female MBA went to a top b-school. I went to one in the Top 20. My career has flatlined. I have well-adjusted kids who love me and value my guidance. My peer is a VP and only has a dog. I've known her since kids were something we both spoke of having. I wouldn't trade places.

Your kids won't think you're a D unless you treat your family badly (spouse as well as kids). My kids were fairly accepting of having a working mom. They are both boys so I think it's good that my future DIL's will have had a path blazed for them IF they want to work. Kids know love when they see it.

Highly doubt things will work out as you expect. I say that as my wifes Mom had a easy full time job growing up as was 9-5pm and five minutes from house. She resented her Mother a lot for working. Walking home from games by her self, being at games after school no one in stands, getting flu at school and having to walk home in rain deadly sick. Her Dad had a 50 hour a week job so not around much. Then her Mom had a third kid ten years younger than her and her Mom forced her and sister into beting the baby sitter for that kid all summer and after school while she worked. She swore she would never do that to her children. So she was a SAHM.

My wife thinks if her Mom was a SAHM she most likely would have not stayed home with kids. But her experience of her Mom doing it was awful.

Anonymous wrote:I disagree that things are more contentious.

I think at more senior levels, people are more focused on important work decisions. They will cut to the chase. Less niceties. A more pragmatic reality of goals, requirements, limitations, etc. They are also the people who have been promoted already, so have demonstrated they are already able to focus on these things and ignore a lot of the soft topics at work.

Some personality types are going to interpret this as contentious, mean, vicious, cruel. Other people don't, and can separate the task at hand from emotions. I am the latter - i am not bothered by convos that lack niceties and is facing hard questions. But i've certainly had friends and colleagues over the years who would be horrified by those interactions. Those people tend not to get to senior levels in corporates, tbh.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I disagree that things are more contentious.

I think at more senior levels, people are more focused on important work decisions. They will cut to the chase. Less niceties. A more pragmatic reality of goals, requirements, limitations, etc. They are also the people who have been promoted already, so have demonstrated they are already able to focus on these things and ignore a lot of the soft topics at work.

Some personality types are going to interpret this as contentious, mean, vicious, cruel. Other people don't, and can separate the task at hand from emotions. I am the latter - i am not bothered by convos that lack niceties and is facing hard questions. But i've certainly had friends and colleagues over the years who would be horrified by those interactions. Those people tend not to get to senior levels in corporates, tbh.

Thanks so much for this. I am also questioning myself if I am just not cut out for this, too green, too naive. I'm just appalled how people would let someone sign off on a project they already know will be doomed to fail so they can kick that person out. I tried to call it out and then I was told I was not strategic. I expressed concern about the expense that project would cost the company, including the aftermath and I was laughed at and *mildly* threatened to be booted out as well

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP. You might like the book "Moral Mazes" by Robert Jackall. Or you can just read the AI summary, lol.

Moral Mazes: The World of Corporate Managers is a 1988 non-fiction book by sociologist Robert Jackall that examines the moral and social world of corporate managers in the United States. Based on fieldwork and interviews, the book argues that corporate bureaucracy shapes managers' moral consciousness, leading to a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset where personal integrity is often compromised for success. Key findings include the importance of public performance, the manipulation of symbols, and the intense competition for status within these organizations.

Key themes and findings

Bureaucracy and moral consciousness: Jackall argues that the structure of large corporations regularizes daily life, subordinates individuals to authority, and fosters a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset that can lead to a compromise of conventional morality.

Public performance: Managers must maintain a "cheerfully-bland public face" while hiding their true intentions and engaging in intense competition. This involves a form of "emotional labor" where they sublimate their own needs to meet the demands of others.

Pragmatism over principle: In this environment, moral questions are often treated as practical concerns or public relations issues, and success depends on a manager's ability to be a "dexterous symbol manipulator".

Competition and hierarchy: The corporate world creates an elaborate status hierarchy that fuels intense competition for prestige, making organizational rules and procedures paramount guides for behavior.

The "moral maze": The title reflects the idea that managers must navigate a complex and often contradictory environment where they are constantly making compromises to succeed, leading them to question how to maintain personal integrity.

Appreciate this very much. Thank you

PP. You're welcome. It is a book about old school F500 corporations but makes general sociological connections. It was recommended by a Purdue professor of engineering ethics who gave a talk at my employer's main R&D facility.

I liked the book a lot. It pretty much concludes that corporate life is inherently feudal.

My most successful peer female MBA went to a top b-school. I went to one in the Top 20. My career has flatlined. I have well-adjusted kids who love me and value my guidance. My peer is a VP and only has a dog. I've known her since kids were something we both spoke of having. I wouldn't trade places.

Your kids won't think you're a D unless you treat your family badly (spouse as well as kids). My kids were fairly accepting of having a working mom. They are both boys so I think it's good that my future DIL's will have had a path blazed for them IF they want to work. Kids know love when they see it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP. You might like the book "Moral Mazes" by Robert Jackall. Or you can just read the AI summary, lol.

Moral Mazes: The World of Corporate Managers is a 1988 non-fiction book by sociologist Robert Jackall that examines the moral and social world of corporate managers in the United States. Based on fieldwork and interviews, the book argues that corporate bureaucracy shapes managers' moral consciousness, leading to a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset where personal integrity is often compromised for success. Key findings include the importance of public performance, the manipulation of symbols, and the intense competition for status within these organizations.

Key themes and findings

Bureaucracy and moral consciousness: Jackall argues that the structure of large corporations regularizes daily life, subordinates individuals to authority, and fosters a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset that can lead to a compromise of conventional morality.

Public performance: Managers must maintain a "cheerfully-bland public face" while hiding their true intentions and engaging in intense competition. This involves a form of "emotional labor" where they sublimate their own needs to meet the demands of others.

Pragmatism over principle: In this environment, moral questions are often treated as practical concerns or public relations issues, and success depends on a manager's ability to be a "dexterous symbol manipulator".

Competition and hierarchy: The corporate world creates an elaborate status hierarchy that fuels intense competition for prestige, making organizational rules and procedures paramount guides for behavior.

The "moral maze": The title reflects the idea that managers must navigate a complex and often contradictory environment where they are constantly making compromises to succeed, leading them to question how to maintain personal integrity.

Appreciate this very much. Thank you

PP. You're welcome. It is a book about old school F500 corporations but makes general sociological connections. It was recommended by a Purdue professor of engineering ethics who gave a talk at my employer's main R&D facility.

I liked the book a lot. It pretty much concludes that corporate life is inherently feudal.

My most successful peer female MBA went to a top b-school. I went to one in the Top 20. My career has flatlined. I have well-adjusted kids who love me and value my guidance. My peer is a VP and only has a dog. I've known her since kids were something we both spoke of having. I wouldn't trade places.

Your kids won't think you're a D unless you treat your family badly (spouse as well as kids). My kids were fairly accepting of having a working mom. They are both boys so I think it's good that my future DIL's will have had a path blazed for them IF they want to work. Kids know love when they see it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP. You might like the book "Moral Mazes" by Robert Jackall. Or you can just read the AI summary, lol.

Moral Mazes: The World of Corporate Managers is a 1988 non-fiction book by sociologist Robert Jackall that examines the moral and social world of corporate managers in the United States. Based on fieldwork and interviews, the book argues that corporate bureaucracy shapes managers' moral consciousness, leading to a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset where personal integrity is often compromised for success. Key findings include the importance of public performance, the manipulation of symbols, and the intense competition for status within these organizations.

Key themes and findings

Bureaucracy and moral consciousness: Jackall argues that the structure of large corporations regularizes daily life, subordinates individuals to authority, and fosters a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset that can lead to a compromise of conventional morality.

Public performance: Managers must maintain a "cheerfully-bland public face" while hiding their true intentions and engaging in intense competition. This involves a form of "emotional labor" where they sublimate their own needs to meet the demands of others.

Pragmatism over principle: In this environment, moral questions are often treated as practical concerns or public relations issues, and success depends on a manager's ability to be a "dexterous symbol manipulator".

Competition and hierarchy: The corporate world creates an elaborate status hierarchy that fuels intense competition for prestige, making organizational rules and procedures paramount guides for behavior.

The "moral maze": The title reflects the idea that managers must navigate a complex and often contradictory environment where they are constantly making compromises to succeed, leading them to question how to maintain personal integrity.

Appreciate this very much. Thank you

Anonymous wrote:PP. You might like the book "Moral Mazes" by Robert Jackall. Or you can just read the AI summary, lol.

Moral Mazes: The World of Corporate Managers is a 1988 non-fiction book by sociologist Robert Jackall that examines the moral and social world of corporate managers in the United States. Based on fieldwork and interviews, the book argues that corporate bureaucracy shapes managers' moral consciousness, leading to a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset where personal integrity is often compromised for success. Key findings include the importance of public performance, the manipulation of symbols, and the intense competition for status within these organizations.

Key themes and findings

Bureaucracy and moral consciousness: Jackall argues that the structure of large corporations regularizes daily life, subordinates individuals to authority, and fosters a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset that can lead to a compromise of conventional morality.

Public performance: Managers must maintain a "cheerfully-bland public face" while hiding their true intentions and engaging in intense competition. This involves a form of "emotional labor" where they sublimate their own needs to meet the demands of others.

Pragmatism over principle: In this environment, moral questions are often treated as practical concerns or public relations issues, and success depends on a manager's ability to be a "dexterous symbol manipulator".

Competition and hierarchy: The corporate world creates an elaborate status hierarchy that fuels intense competition for prestige, making organizational rules and procedures paramount guides for behavior.

The "moral maze": The title reflects the idea that managers must navigate a complex and often contradictory environment where they are constantly making compromises to succeed, leading them to question how to maintain personal integrity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am ragged out. Got a senior director
promotion 2 years ago and I dont know
if it's just the times, but it feels most of my work relationships and meetings are getting more contentious. Less civil. More game of thrones. Like people are happy to see competitors fail, even at the expense of the entire industry. Meetings feel like pissing contests eveey single time. I dont even want to play because I just find it so distasteful. Both my parents were working class so I have no exposure to these types of interactions. Curious if other people are seeing similar and what did you do to survive. I had previously wanted to own my own line as a VP but now I am not sure

Thank you.

My dad is a retired VP. He made money. I am not sure if he is happy today..His wife(my mom) certainly isn't. We (his kids) aren't that thrilled to be around him. That position turned him into a monster. He is very poor health despite being only 70.

Is it really worth it to be the guy with one of the biggest d**k in the room? I don't know man