THERE IS NO DEMOGRAPHIC CLIFF.

YES, BARRING SEVERE TESTING ANXIETY SHE NEEDS TO TEST. And then she can decide whether or not to send her scores.

Sorry for shouting at you, OP, but it's maddening how some myths persist. The demographic decline is going to spread out slowly over time. It's a leisurely roll downhill. You should NOT take it into account.

The trend is for more colleges to slowly required testing again, after belatedly realizing that academic testing is by far the least inequitable means of evaluating students. It won't happen for your kid, who will still have practically all colleges be test-optional. But even for test-optional places, it would advantage her to prove that her AP scores are not a fluke.

And no, math is not 25% of the ACT, if she decides to skip the science portion of it, which is now optional (but again, highly recommended). Also, the ACT has logs, more geometry and miscellaneous questions in math than the SAT, which mainly draws from Alg 1 and Alg 2.

The main difference between the SAT and the ACT is that the former has more in-depth questions about a narrower range of topics and more time per question; and the latter has fewer in-depth questions about a wider range of topics but less time per question. The SAT questions are blessedly short, even the reading comprehension, which is great for distracted kids; and the ACT passages for reading and science are very long. So kids need to try both and pick the ones they prefer!

Anonymous wrote:TO is the back door way for colleges to admit athletes, minorities, and disadvantaged people without their scores bringing down the average.

If your daughter is a rich white girl with good grades, applying TO screams “hi! My SAT score is below your 25%ile.

ok but also some of us tanned brown girls don't want to waste time studying for sat or act either!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

I think she should at least try prepping and taking the test, and if her scores are low she can use TO as a fall back position. If she's only a junior now, she has more than enough time to prep. I'd suggest she take a practice ACT and practice SAT (not PSAT) under test conditions at home with no preparation but only to see which testing style and content suits her more. If she's not strong in math, she could just skip that step and focus exclusively on the ACT. Math is only 25% of the ACT and is 50% of the SAT. Also, the math on the SAT is harder and more sophisticated. Most of ACT is 8th/9th grade math and is more of a speed contest. Once she's made a ACT vs SAT choice, she should prep and take official practice tests before planning to take the ACT or SAT at least 2 times prior to senior year beginning (Spring & Summer).

My view is that even at TO schools they may be secretly test preferred. And SAT or ACT is a great way to validate a strong GPA of mostly As from a public school.

While I agree that the ACT is better for some student than SAT so kids should consider both, this information about the ACT is not quite correct. It is now 1/3 of the total score. I’d also be skeptical that the math doesn’t go beyond 8th/9th grade.

The SAT gives more time but is designed to be trickier. The ACT gives less time but is designed to be more straightforward.

I know that ACT is transitioning to be more like SAT, but 33% (1/3) is still closer to 25% than 50% - the SAT is 50% math.

Also, ACT covering 8th/9th grade math might be accurate for many students who do algebra in 7th/8th grade or earlier and start geometry in grade 8/9.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

It really depends on the schools she wants to apply to. If outside the top 70 or so, TO is not a problem, especially if she is submitting 4s and 5s on AP tests.

But she seems to test pretty well in advanced classes. So it sounds like she just doesn't want to bother with the ACT or SAT.

Which, duh. Absolutely no high school student wants to take the SAT/ACT. If they could all check out, they would. But they put their heads down, and do it. So in comparison to her classmates and the millions of other students that take the test, she's going to come across as lame and lazy if she's submitting 5s on AP tests but refuses to take the SAT/ACT.

My suggestion is to take practice and timed ACT and SAT tests on a Saturday morning. As others have noted, the ACT is easier, but faster. The SAT is harder, but slower. Try each. It's probably not as bad as she thinks it is. And every practice score can be substantially improved with some preparation. Take whichever test she prefers. And then she preserves all her options. Rando unhooked kids from the "burbs who don't submit scores are going to have a problem at the more selective schools.

Have a doctor write a note for extra time, then take the ACT. Bingo.

I'd say at least 50% of the wealthy kids in our nabe did this. (well, their parents did)

yes two of my DS's friends shared they did this. IMO I think this kind of abuse by some wealthy kids makes ACT score less reliable than the SAT.

Kids at DC's school made fun of kids who did the ACT instead of the SAT for this reason. But colleges accept the scores as identical.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

It really depends on the schools she wants to apply to. If outside the top 70 or so, TO is not a problem, especially if she is submitting 4s and 5s on AP tests.

But she seems to test pretty well in advanced classes. So it sounds like she just doesn't want to bother with the ACT or SAT.

Which, duh. Absolutely no high school student wants to take the SAT/ACT. If they could all check out, they would. But they put their heads down, and do it. So in comparison to her classmates and the millions of other students that take the test, she's going to come across as lame and lazy if she's submitting 5s on AP tests but refuses to take the SAT/ACT.

My suggestion is to take practice and timed ACT and SAT tests on a Saturday morning. As others have noted, the ACT is easier, but faster. The SAT is harder, but slower. Try each. It's probably not as bad as she thinks it is. And every practice score can be substantially improved with some preparation. Take whichever test she prefers. And then she preserves all her options. Rando unhooked kids from the "burbs who don't submit scores are going to have a problem at the more selective schools.

Have a doctor write a note for extra time, then take the ACT. Bingo.

I'd say at least 50% of the wealthy kids in our nabe did this. (well, their parents did)

Getting accommodations is a lot more complicated than a doctor note.

In NY you just need a doctor to sign off on a 504 for "anxiety."

I don’t understand. If this is as simple as signing off a doctor note, why is it a wealthy kid thing? Any kid could get it if they want it?

Because parents looking for a way to cheat the college entry system skew wealthy. You have to "be in the know." And if you don't have a cooperative doctor, or you need something else to satisfy the College Board, you have to pay out of pocket for a neuropsych exam which costs thousands (trust me that with the "right" neuropsych, your child will received the necessary diagnosis).

TO is the back door way for colleges to admit athletes, minorities, and disadvantaged people without their scores bringing down the average.

If your daughter is a rich white girl with good grades, applying TO screams “hi! My SAT score is below your 25%ile.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

I think she should at least try prepping and taking the test, and if her scores are low she can use TO as a fall back position. If she's only a junior now, she has more than enough time to prep. I'd suggest she take a practice ACT and practice SAT (not PSAT) under test conditions at home with no preparation but only to see which testing style and content suits her more. If she's not strong in math, she could just skip that step and focus exclusively on the ACT. Math is only 25% of the ACT and is 50% of the SAT. Also, the math on the SAT is harder and more sophisticated. Most of ACT is 8th/9th grade math and is more of a speed contest. Once she's made a ACT vs SAT choice, she should prep and take official practice tests before planning to take the ACT or SAT at least 2 times prior to senior year beginning (Spring & Summer).

My view is that even at TO schools they may be secretly test preferred. And SAT or ACT is a great way to validate a strong GPA of mostly As from a public school.

While I agree that the ACT is better for some student than SAT so kids should consider both, this information about the ACT is not quite correct. It is now 1/3 of the total score. I’d also be skeptical that the math doesn’t go beyond 8th/9th grade.

The SAT gives more time but is designed to be trickier. The ACT gives less time but is designed to be more straightforward.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

It really depends on the schools she wants to apply to. If outside the top 70 or so, TO is not a problem, especially if she is submitting 4s and 5s on AP tests.

But she seems to test pretty well in advanced classes. So it sounds like she just doesn't want to bother with the ACT or SAT.

Which, duh. Absolutely no high school student wants to take the SAT/ACT. If they could all check out, they would. But they put their heads down, and do it. So in comparison to her classmates and the millions of other students that take the test, she's going to come across as lame and lazy if she's submitting 5s on AP tests but refuses to take the SAT/ACT.

My suggestion is to take practice and timed ACT and SAT tests on a Saturday morning. As others have noted, the ACT is easier, but faster. The SAT is harder, but slower. Try each. It's probably not as bad as she thinks it is. And every practice score can be substantially improved with some preparation. Take whichever test she prefers. And then she preserves all her options. Rando unhooked kids from the "burbs who don't submit scores are going to have a problem at the more selective schools.

Have a doctor write a note for extra time, then take the ACT. Bingo.

I'd say at least 50% of the wealthy kids in our nabe did this. (well, their parents did)

Getting accommodations is a lot more complicated than a doctor note.

In NY you just need a doctor to sign off on a 504 for "anxiety."

I don’t understand. If this is as simple as signing off a doctor note, why is it a wealthy kid thing? Any kid could get it if they want it?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

It really depends on the schools she wants to apply to. If outside the top 70 or so, TO is not a problem, especially if she is submitting 4s and 5s on AP tests.

But she seems to test pretty well in advanced classes. So it sounds like she just doesn't want to bother with the ACT or SAT.

Which, duh. Absolutely no high school student wants to take the SAT/ACT. If they could all check out, they would. But they put their heads down, and do it. So in comparison to her classmates and the millions of other students that take the test, she's going to come across as lame and lazy if she's submitting 5s on AP tests but refuses to take the SAT/ACT.

My suggestion is to take practice and timed ACT and SAT tests on a Saturday morning. As others have noted, the ACT is easier, but faster. The SAT is harder, but slower. Try each. It's probably not as bad as she thinks it is. And every practice score can be substantially improved with some preparation. Take whichever test she prefers. And then she preserves all her options. Rando unhooked kids from the "burbs who don't submit scores are going to have a problem at the more selective schools.

Have a doctor write a note for extra time, then take the ACT. Bingo.

I'd say at least 50% of the wealthy kids in our nabe did this. (well, their parents did)

yes two of my DS's friends shared they did this. IMO I think this kind of abuse by some wealthy kids makes ACT score less reliable than the SAT.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

It really depends on the schools she wants to apply to. If outside the top 70 or so, TO is not a problem, especially if she is submitting 4s and 5s on AP tests.

But she seems to test pretty well in advanced classes. So it sounds like she just doesn't want to bother with the ACT or SAT.

Which, duh. Absolutely no high school student wants to take the SAT/ACT. If they could all check out, they would. But they put their heads down, and do it. So in comparison to her classmates and the millions of other students that take the test, she's going to come across as lame and lazy if she's submitting 5s on AP tests but refuses to take the SAT/ACT.

My suggestion is to take practice and timed ACT and SAT tests on a Saturday morning. As others have noted, the ACT is easier, but faster. The SAT is harder, but slower. Try each. It's probably not as bad as she thinks it is. And every practice score can be substantially improved with some preparation. Take whichever test she prefers. And then she preserves all her options. Rando unhooked kids from the "burbs who don't submit scores are going to have a problem at the more selective schools.

Have a doctor write a note for extra time, then take the ACT. Bingo.

I'd say at least 50% of the wealthy kids in our nabe did this. (well, their parents did)

Getting accommodations is a lot more complicated than a doctor note.

In NY you just need a doctor to sign off on a 504 for "anxiety."

I believe College Board has been cracking down on the "rich kid with a doctor's note" avenue. Accommodations for ADHD students is much more complicated now. Wealthy parents have been abusing ADHD loopholes for years - especially in NY.

Feel bad for the kids that actually have ADHD. But rich parents have been using that loophole for a long time now.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

It really depends on the schools she wants to apply to. If outside the top 70 or so, TO is not a problem, especially if she is submitting 4s and 5s on AP tests.

But she seems to test pretty well in advanced classes. So it sounds like she just doesn't want to bother with the ACT or SAT.

Which, duh. Absolutely no high school student wants to take the SAT/ACT. If they could all check out, they would. But they put their heads down, and do it. So in comparison to her classmates and the millions of other students that take the test, she's going to come across as lame and lazy if she's submitting 5s on AP tests but refuses to take the SAT/ACT.

My suggestion is to take practice and timed ACT and SAT tests on a Saturday morning. As others have noted, the ACT is easier, but faster. The SAT is harder, but slower. Try each. It's probably not as bad as she thinks it is. And every practice score can be substantially improved with some preparation. Take whichever test she prefers. And then she preserves all her options. Rando unhooked kids from the "burbs who don't submit scores are going to have a problem at the more selective schools.

Have a doctor write a note for extra time, then take the ACT. Bingo.

I'd say at least 50% of the wealthy kids in our nabe did this. (well, their parents did)

Getting accommodations is a lot more complicated than a doctor note.

In NY you just need a doctor to sign off on a 504 for "anxiety."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

It really depends on the schools she wants to apply to. If outside the top 70 or so, TO is not a problem, especially if she is submitting 4s and 5s on AP tests.

But she seems to test pretty well in advanced classes. So it sounds like she just doesn't want to bother with the ACT or SAT.

Which, duh. Absolutely no high school student wants to take the SAT/ACT. If they could all check out, they would. But they put their heads down, and do it. So in comparison to her classmates and the millions of other students that take the test, she's going to come across as lame and lazy if she's submitting 5s on AP tests but refuses to take the SAT/ACT.

My suggestion is to take practice and timed ACT and SAT tests on a Saturday morning. As others have noted, the ACT is easier, but faster. The SAT is harder, but slower. Try each. It's probably not as bad as she thinks it is. And every practice score can be substantially improved with some preparation. Take whichever test she prefers. And then she preserves all her options. Rando unhooked kids from the "burbs who don't submit scores are going to have a problem at the more selective schools.

Have a doctor write a note for extra time, then take the ACT. Bingo.

I'd say at least 50% of the wealthy kids in our nabe did this. (well, their parents did)

Getting accommodations is a lot more complicated than a doctor note.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

It really depends on the schools she wants to apply to. If outside the top 70 or so, TO is not a problem, especially if she is submitting 4s and 5s on AP tests.

But she seems to test pretty well in advanced classes. So it sounds like she just doesn't want to bother with the ACT or SAT.

Which, duh. Absolutely no high school student wants to take the SAT/ACT. If they could all check out, they would. But they put their heads down, and do it. So in comparison to her classmates and the millions of other students that take the test, she's going to come across as lame and lazy if she's submitting 5s on AP tests but refuses to take the SAT/ACT.

My suggestion is to take practice and timed ACT and SAT tests on a Saturday morning. As others have noted, the ACT is easier, but faster. The SAT is harder, but slower. Try each. It's probably not as bad as she thinks it is. And every practice score can be substantially improved with some preparation. Take whichever test she prefers. And then she preserves all her options. Rando unhooked kids from the "burbs who don't submit scores are going to have a problem at the more selective schools.

Have a doctor write a note for extra time, then take the ACT. Bingo.

I'd say at least 50% of the wealthy kids in our nabe did this. (well, their parents did)

Another vote for taking. There is no good reason mentioned in the OP for not taking a test. I agree with PP, not wanting to is not a reason.

Only apply test optional if the score is not in range for the college.

Anonymous wrote:DD is a good student with mostly As as well as 4s and 5s on AP tests. She would like to apply only test-optional. Do you think this is going to be *severely* limiting when it comes to applications next year? Will more and more colleges require scores? Or do you think that the "demographic cliff" will cushion requirements for testing? She is at a MoCo public HS, and we are full-pay.

It really depends on the schools she wants to apply to. If outside the top 70 or so, TO is not a problem, especially if she is submitting 4s and 5s on AP tests.

But she seems to test pretty well in advanced classes. So it sounds like she just doesn't want to bother with the ACT or SAT.

Which, duh. Absolutely no high school student wants to take the SAT/ACT. If they could all check out, they would. But they put their heads down, and do it. So in comparison to her classmates and the millions of other students that take the test, she's going to come across as lame and lazy if she's submitting 5s on AP tests but refuses to take the SAT/ACT.

My suggestion is to take practice and timed ACT and SAT tests on a Saturday morning. As others have noted, the ACT is easier, but faster. The SAT is harder, but slower. Try each. It's probably not as bad as she thinks it is. And every practice score can be substantially improved with some preparation. Take whichever test she prefers. And then she preserves all her options. Rando unhooked kids from the "burbs who don't submit scores are going to have a problem at the more selective schools.