Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it important for him to look NT? If difficulty making eye contact and slouching are signs of anxiety, I'm surprised you aren't asking how to help with his anxiety, rather than make himself more uncomfortable hiding his anxiety.

Eye contact can be painful for many ND people. It can also make it more difficult for them to focus, pay attention, and participate. This should not be the thing you focus on.

I disagree. All kids deserve to be taught that basic politeness means making some eye contact and saying hello. Doesn’t mean you demand it constantly but yes the should be taught. And they also need to learn to make eye contact crucially to ensure that they are understood when they are eg buying something in a store or asking the bus driver if it’s the right bus. It is a basic communication skill.

Why on earth do I need to make eye contact when buying something in a store? I take my items to the cashier, they ring them up, I pay. Eye contact is not needed to be understood.

Politeness requires acknowledging others when interacting with them. It requires looking in their general direction. But eye contact itself is not required. If I look at someone's nose or ears because that allows me to engage in conversation, I have no obligation to make myself uncomfortable.

You need to make eye contact to make sure a person hears and understands you. This is pretty basic. I guess in a transaction that is completely without communication it’s not an issue. But my personal goal for raising my kid is to get him to be independent and problem solve. And that definitely includes how to make and understand requests in public.

I'm sorry you sound ridiculous. No, you don't need to make eye contact with the guy at 711 selling you a coke and a bag of chips. Signed, person who works with blind people who do this sort of thing daily with no eye contact. You are now changing your story. You said it was for politeness now you say it's for function. You're being ableist x1000. I mean yes, tell your kid that most NT people use eye contact, and help him understand the world. But don't force him to do it the same way as other people.

Politeness and function, both of those things. and I assume that blind kids learn additional ways to ensure that someone is hearing them - or sometimes part of their disability is that they don’t know. There is zero “ableist” about teaching kids to communicate. On the contrary it’s incredibly condescending not to teach kids how to communicate when needed. Thankfully I follow my common sense and not TikTok activists who have no responsibility or understanding of my kid.

But seriously f right off with accusing me of abusing my kid because I give him tools and knowledge to navigate the world.

Simmer down, now. PP didn't say you were being abusive, but that you're being ableist.

That I am discriminating against my *own child.* and per other PP’s causing him to be suicidal. Seriously y’all go kick rocks.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it important for him to look NT? If difficulty making eye contact and slouching are signs of anxiety, I'm surprised you aren't asking how to help with his anxiety, rather than make himself more uncomfortable hiding his anxiety.

Eye contact can be painful for many ND people. It can also make it more difficult for them to focus, pay attention, and participate. This should not be the thing you focus on.

I disagree. All kids deserve to be taught that basic politeness means making some eye contact and saying hello. Doesn’t mean you demand it constantly but yes the should be taught. And they also need to learn to make eye contact crucially to ensure that they are understood when they are eg buying something in a store or asking the bus driver if it’s the right bus. It is a basic communication skill.

Why on earth do I need to make eye contact when buying something in a store? I take my items to the cashier, they ring them up, I pay. Eye contact is not needed to be understood.

Politeness requires acknowledging others when interacting with them. It requires looking in their general direction. But eye contact itself is not required. If I look at someone's nose or ears because that allows me to engage in conversation, I have no obligation to make myself uncomfortable.

You need to make eye contact to make sure a person hears and understands you. This is pretty basic. I guess in a transaction that is completely without communication it’s not an issue. But my personal goal for raising my kid is to get him to be independent and problem solve. And that definitely includes how to make and understand requests in public.

I'm sorry you sound ridiculous. No, you don't need to make eye contact with the guy at 711 selling you a coke and a bag of chips. Signed, person who works with blind people who do this sort of thing daily with no eye contact. You are now changing your story. You said it was for politeness now you say it's for function. You're being ableist x1000. I mean yes, tell your kid that most NT people use eye contact, and help him understand the world. But don't force him to do it the same way as other people.

Politeness and function, both of those things. and I assume that blind kids learn additional ways to ensure that someone is hearing them - or sometimes part of their disability is that they don’t know. There is zero “ableist” about teaching kids to communicate. On the contrary it’s incredibly condescending not to teach kids how to communicate when needed. Thankfully I follow my common sense and not TikTok activists who have no responsibility or understanding of my kid.

But seriously f right off with accusing me of abusing my kid because I give him tools and knowledge to navigate the world.

Simmer down, now. PP didn't say you were being abusive, but that you're being ableist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it important for him to look NT? If difficulty making eye contact and slouching are signs of anxiety, I'm surprised you aren't asking how to help with his anxiety, rather than make himself more uncomfortable hiding his anxiety.

Eye contact can be painful for many ND people. It can also make it more difficult for them to focus, pay attention, and participate. This should not be the thing you focus on.

I disagree. All kids deserve to be taught that basic politeness means making some eye contact and saying hello. Doesn’t mean you demand it constantly but yes the should be taught. And they also need to learn to make eye contact crucially to ensure that they are understood when they are eg buying something in a store or asking the bus driver if it’s the right bus. It is a basic communication skill.

Why on earth do I need to make eye contact when buying something in a store? I take my items to the cashier, they ring them up, I pay. Eye contact is not needed to be understood.

Politeness requires acknowledging others when interacting with them. It requires looking in their general direction. But eye contact itself is not required. If I look at someone's nose or ears because that allows me to engage in conversation, I have no obligation to make myself uncomfortable.

You need to make eye contact to make sure a person hears and understands you. This is pretty basic. I guess in a transaction that is completely without communication it’s not an issue. But my personal goal for raising my kid is to get him to be independent and problem solve. And that definitely includes how to make and understand requests in public.

Dude, self-checkout is a godsend for people who hate interacting with people, for whatever reason.

Anonymous wrote:The rate of suicide and depression for ASD is 5x higher then same age non ASD peers.

… caused by isolation and lack of social contact - so what parents need to be working hard on is ensuring their kids can navigate the world.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it important for him to look NT? If difficulty making eye contact and slouching are signs of anxiety, I'm surprised you aren't asking how to help with his anxiety, rather than make himself more uncomfortable hiding his anxiety.

Eye contact can be painful for many ND people. It can also make it more difficult for them to focus, pay attention, and participate. This should not be the thing you focus on.

I disagree. All kids deserve to be taught that basic politeness means making some eye contact and saying hello. Doesn’t mean you demand it constantly but yes the should be taught. And they also need to learn to make eye contact crucially to ensure that they are understood when they are eg buying something in a store or asking the bus driver if it’s the right bus. It is a basic communication skill.

Why on earth do I need to make eye contact when buying something in a store? I take my items to the cashier, they ring them up, I pay. Eye contact is not needed to be understood.

Politeness requires acknowledging others when interacting with them. It requires looking in their general direction. But eye contact itself is not required. If I look at someone's nose or ears because that allows me to engage in conversation, I have no obligation to make myself uncomfortable.

You need to make eye contact to make sure a person hears and understands you. This is pretty basic. I guess in a transaction that is completely without communication it’s not an issue. But my personal goal for raising my kid is to get him to be independent and problem solve. And that definitely includes how to make and understand requests in public.

I'm sorry you sound ridiculous. No, you don't need to make eye contact with the guy at 711 selling you a coke and a bag of chips. Signed, person who works with blind people who do this sort of thing daily with no eye contact. You are now changing your story. You said it was for politeness now you say it's for function. You're being ableist x1000. I mean yes, tell your kid that most NT people use eye contact, and help him understand the world. But don't force him to do it the same way as other people.

Politeness and function, both of those things. and I assume that blind kids learn additional ways to ensure that someone is hearing them - or sometimes part of their disability is that they don’t know. There is zero “ableist” about teaching kids to communicate. On the contrary it’s incredibly condescending not to teach kids how to communicate when needed. Thankfully I follow my common sense and not TikTok activists who have no responsibility or understanding of my kid.

But seriously f right off with accusing me of abusing my kid because I give him tools and knowledge to navigate the world.

Anonymous wrote:This is OP and this thread has turned bonkers. I've only responded once. I do however think my son has the capacity and understanding to at least try, in certain settings, to make eye contact and try to operate without certain social bounds. I'm not being cruel to him. Those who are being pointlessly argumentative, please drop off this thread. And thanks for those who made suggestions, sounds like we're doing what we need to keep doing an we'll keep our eyes open for more opportunities like this program that remind him that behavior needs to adjust in certain settings. Yesterday, he was super excited because he got to shake hands with a judge - very cool program.

Op, my DD is 12 and also understands social norms but mostly doesn’t care. I don’t think she immediately comes off as atypical but with time I think her lack of caring about social norms can make her get excluded.

We previously put her in a social skills class and will do so again this coming year. She said she benefited from the way they explicitly teach the social norms and behaviors and then practice them. She doesn’t really have issues making friends with similar interests, it’s when she needs to make small talk or talk to people she doesn’t have things in common with that she struggles. Unfortunately that’s a lot of human interaction, especially as one gets older.

We are actually putting her in cotillion as well because we also hope the explicit instruction and practice will be helpful, and she has to get dressed up, which is also a skill she needs to get better at as she gets older (right now I still fight with her about brushing hair and showering).

I was a lot like my DD and was just very very slow to mature socially - part of me thinks that that was the right journey for me, but I missed out on lots of fun socializing as a teen and in college because of my lack of caring and unwillingness to conform. I did ultimately want to dress cutely/wear makeup/etc in graduate school, but then I had to do it and learn it all alone - it’s not the same as having learned all this stuff with my friends.

So while I’m not pushing DD to mature socially, I am pushing her to learn the skills and practice them. I am also starting to help her pick out “cute” outfits to wear - if not she will literally wear any pants with any shirt and doesn’t care if it matches or not. I’m not trying to change my kid, just help them build skills that will allow them to fit in if they one day decide they want to.

It sounds like you are doing something similar at home and at this camp. I would encourage you to keep doing it, it can only help.

my personal experience was that social skills are a skillset that people build. I’m naturally shy and introverted but I know that building a strong community personally and professionally is facilitated by more outgoing behavior. So I have learned to make small talk and we regularly host small and big events, and I have learned to work a room at a work conference, even if I really don’t like doing it.

Maybe some place like Social Grace in Arlington. They do outings and real life encounters. It’s not cheap but could be worth it.

We have worked repeatedly with our socially anxious kid “eyes and hi”—when you great someone you give them your eyes and say hi. I don’t care about sustained eye contact but I do care he was taught that skill. He does it ~80-90% of the time now without asking. He’s fifteen and we started in earnest around age 8. I don’t care that he’s “normal” but it was affecting his ability to build and have deeper friendships (aka saw someone from school and wouldn’t look at them or say hi).

ASD kids might be different though, but I do think parents play a role and I do think they can ask too much. It’s about finding a balance I suppose

This is OP and this thread has turned bonkers. I've only responded once. I do however think my son has the capacity and understanding to at least try, in certain settings, to make eye contact and try to operate without certain social bounds. I'm not being cruel to him. Those who are being pointlessly argumentative, please drop off this thread. And thanks for those who made suggestions, sounds like we're doing what we need to keep doing an we'll keep our eyes open for more opportunities like this program that remind him that behavior needs to adjust in certain settings. Yesterday, he was super excited because he got to shake hands with a judge - very cool program.

The rate of suicide and depression for ASD is 5x higher then same age non ASD peers.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it important for him to look NT? If difficulty making eye contact and slouching are signs of anxiety, I'm surprised you aren't asking how to help with his anxiety, rather than make himself more uncomfortable hiding his anxiety.

Eye contact can be painful for many ND people. It can also make it more difficult for them to focus, pay attention, and participate. This should not be the thing you focus on.

I disagree. All kids deserve to be taught that basic politeness means making some eye contact and saying hello. Doesn’t mean you demand it constantly but yes the should be taught. And they also need to learn to make eye contact crucially to ensure that they are understood when they are eg buying something in a store or asking the bus driver if it’s the right bus. It is a basic communication skill.

Why on earth do I need to make eye contact when buying something in a store? I take my items to the cashier, they ring them up, I pay. Eye contact is not needed to be understood.

Politeness requires acknowledging others when interacting with them. It requires looking in their general direction. But eye contact itself is not required. If I look at someone's nose or ears because that allows me to engage in conversation, I have no obligation to make myself uncomfortable.

You need to make eye contact to make sure a person hears and understands you. This is pretty basic. I guess in a transaction that is completely without communication it’s not an issue. But my personal goal for raising my kid is to get him to be independent and problem solve. And that definitely includes how to make and understand requests in public.

I'm sorry you sound ridiculous. No, you don't need to make eye contact with the guy at 711 selling you a coke and a bag of chips. Signed, person who works with blind people who do this sort of thing daily with no eye contact. You are now changing your story. You said it was for politeness now you say it's for function. You're being ableist x1000. I mean yes, tell your kid that most NT people use eye contact, and help him understand the world. But don't force him to do it the same way as other people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it important for him to look NT? If difficulty making eye contact and slouching are signs of anxiety, I'm surprised you aren't asking how to help with his anxiety, rather than make himself more uncomfortable hiding his anxiety.

Eye contact can be painful for many ND people. It can also make it more difficult for them to focus, pay attention, and participate. This should not be the thing you focus on.

I disagree. All kids deserve to be taught that basic politeness means making some eye contact and saying hello. Doesn’t mean you demand it constantly but yes the should be taught. And they also need to learn to make eye contact crucially to ensure that they are understood when they are eg buying something in a store or asking the bus driver if it’s the right bus. It is a basic communication skill.

Why on earth do I need to make eye contact when buying something in a store? I take my items to the cashier, they ring them up, I pay. Eye contact is not needed to be understood.

Politeness requires acknowledging others when interacting with them. It requires looking in their general direction. But eye contact itself is not required. If I look at someone's nose or ears because that allows me to engage in conversation, I have no obligation to make myself uncomfortable.

I’m trying to make my child appear normal, you clearly are not, so I’m not taking your advice.

This is how special needs kids get suicidal. And I'm not being hyperbolic. He can't be "normal" as he isn't. God I hate the word normal. But people will clock him his whole life. Memorizing the "rules" won't help him look like other kids. It'll look like he had to memorize the rules.

Anonymous wrote:Thanks everyone, op here. To clarify, this is my first follow up post. I was not the poster who had the back and forth above regarding whether you should force “normal” behavior. In our case, ds has the capacity to work harder at this so we see no issues with pushing him on it. I did use the words “came down hard on him” - and I should clarify that his first day of camp was also in tandem with him being rude to good family friends of ours. I’m sure it was all sort of related, but it was unacceptable and that one really did deserve a stern talking to. So we did talk to him sternly, but clarified we weren’t mad at him but expected the behavior to change. Thanks for some of the suggestions. Appreciate ppl saying there was nothing unusual in his behavior for a 13 year old, but he really did stand out from every other kid who came into the sign in desk.

he stands out not because he is rude but because he is not neurotypical OP. I never use the term “neurotypical” because it annoys me but I want to use it here because you are clearly ascribing a moral/values aspect to what is pretty clearly just his “quirky” or ND behavior. Do you truly believe your 13 year old among all 13 year olds is the most rude? I don’t think so - he just has a different (non typical) way of relating to social rules and cues. The actual meanest and rudest kids are the NT ones - the bullies, the excluders, the ones who can manipulate others socially. That is the paradox of “normal” social skills and neurotypicality - being rude and mean in many contexts is wholly neurotypical. The whole point of social skills is to establish hierarchies.

The reason you coach your child is so that he learns skills that will benefit him and he can understand the social rules and opt in, and his neuro-atypical manners won’t hold him back. Not because he is a uniquely rude child and needs to be disciplined.

Thanks everyone, op here. To clarify, this is my first follow up post. I was not the poster who had the back and forth above regarding whether you should force “normal” behavior. In our case, ds has the capacity to work harder at this so we see no issues with pushing him on it. I did use the words “came down hard on him” - and I should clarify that his first day of camp was also in tandem with him being rude to good family friends of ours. I’m sure it was all sort of related, but it was unacceptable and that one really did deserve a stern talking to. So we did talk to him sternly, but clarified we weren’t mad at him but expected the behavior to change. Thanks for some of the suggestions. Appreciate ppl saying there was nothing unusual in his behavior for a 13 year old, but he really did stand out from every other kid who came into the sign in desk.

None of that behavior from a 13 year old would bother me in the least.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it important for him to look NT? If difficulty making eye contact and slouching are signs of anxiety, I'm surprised you aren't asking how to help with his anxiety, rather than make himself more uncomfortable hiding his anxiety.

Eye contact can be painful for many ND people. It can also make it more difficult for them to focus, pay attention, and participate. This should not be the thing you focus on.

I disagree. All kids deserve to be taught that basic politeness means making some eye contact and saying hello. Doesn’t mean you demand it constantly but yes the should be taught. And they also need to learn to make eye contact crucially to ensure that they are understood when they are eg buying something in a store or asking the bus driver if it’s the right bus. It is a basic communication skill.

Why on earth do I need to make eye contact when buying something in a store? I take my items to the cashier, they ring them up, I pay. Eye contact is not needed to be understood.

Politeness requires acknowledging others when interacting with them. It requires looking in their general direction. But eye contact itself is not required. If I look at someone's nose or ears because that allows me to engage in conversation, I have no obligation to make myself uncomfortable.

You need to make eye contact to make sure a person hears and understands you. This is pretty basic. I guess in a transaction that is completely without communication it’s not an issue. But my personal goal for raising my kid is to get him to be independent and problem solve. And that definitely includes how to make and understand requests in public.