Anonymous
06/16/2025 19:50
Subject: Re:Extreme anxiety and major depression
I mean this gently, but it sounds like her mental health has caused problems for her and you/your siblings for her entire adult life. It isn't likely to be solved at 87. I would leave this to her doctors/nurses/aides and try not to get involved on the medical side.
Anonymous
06/16/2025 18:13
Subject: Extreme anxiety and major depression
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Very very gently, she is 87. You say that the endpoint is going to be dying if you don't break the cycle... maybe that's her natural course. Maybe for her it's not cancer or a stroke or heart disease, it's mental illnesses with physical side effects. You and your siblings are making her exercise, taking her to doctors, giving her medications, supplements... You talk of magnetic stimulation and electroshock therapy and ketamine as a nasal spray (?!). There is no correct answer to this, but when is enough enough?
At this point, there could be some mental decline that is boosting the anxiety. My dad did not have a history of depression and anxiety but did develop a hefty amount of anxiety + some OCD habits + some ADHD symptoms as his dementia began. This was before he was officially diagnosed, but in hindsight we can see how it's all connected.
One recommendation I do have is to see a geriatric psychiatrist. Some medications are not effective for the elderly. Their mental pathways are changing, and what once used to be effective treatment may no longer work. Geriatric psychiatrists will be much more aware of this plus other possible issues.
Good luck OP.
Yes, I think you're likely absolutely right. Her mental health issues are the drivers of all her decline. All the alternative therapies are basically hunting for a silver bullet that probably doesn't exist. And at this point she would probably be made even more anxious.
I think you are getting PP backwards. Your mom’s mental health decline could be caused by physical health (or physical neurological) problems, and not the other way around. My elderly relative became extremely anxious and depressed shortly before she died—she had a brain tumor. I’m sure it went both ways—maybe the anxiety made her physical health worse. But the literal deterioration of her brain also caused her mental health problems. There was no way to comfort her. It was just part of her path.
Anonymous
06/16/2025 17:57
Subject: Extreme anxiety and major depression
Anonymous wrote:You children need to step back. Very loose hold on the rope. You do not have to fix this . She is in a care facility. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO FIX HER. OR CURE HER. OR EVEN MAKE HER FEEL BETTER. IT IS NOT YOUR JOB.
Stop looking for a cure or fix. Just stop. Live your lives. Nor orbit angrily around her.
Let her be. See how she does. It cannot be worse for you than your micromanagement is. It may be no different for her.
I suggest you look into AlAnon because you children are enraged codependent. You need to live as faults not overburdened terrified children.
Love to you all.
NP here. Thank you for this. Sometimes I think there is really something wrong with me because I don't see a need to treat my parents' physical and mental declines with massive time and resources. So many people are like OP that I wonder if I'm supposed to be insisting on more, when all I really think people in their late 80s need is a gentle passing on. We are living way past any quality of life in this country. Stop all the medications and die naturally--this is nuts.
Anonymous
06/16/2025 17:50
Subject: Extreme anxiety and major depression
Anonymous wrote:
If this is the best you can do, maybe you all need to take a step back and let paid caregivers be more primary in her life. Shaming her for being unable to “shake” a lifelong mental health condition is not going to work. It is especially not going to work when the threat is “or you will die”; she is 87 and will be dying regardless.
If the benzodiazepine was working, she could consider going back on it. Elevated ammonia in someone who is 87 is not like elevated ammonia in a 47 year old. Cutting her off from treatments that worked for the benefit of her long-term health is insane. She is 87; there is no long term.
Have you gotten treatment for your trauma? It sounds like you could use it. Good thoughts to you.
Her potential death from mental illness isn't a threat, it's a fact. She is aware and acknowledges that nearly all her decline in the past 5 years of so is because of her mental health problems. Rather than threatening what we are doing is telling her the consequences we are observing. It's a last plea for her to have some agency in her recovery, if she still has it in her.
Stepping back will just trigger further downward spirals. Now she's calling me telling me she's frightened and begging me to come over. We're refusing to come over more than once per day. She's also not in assisted living so there's no paid caregiver to depend on, though that may come in the near future.
The benzodiazepines are not coming back, because they increase the risk of falls and cognitive impairment and also increase the likelihood of high ammonia levels. Have you ever seen an elderly woman with high ammonia levels? In my mom she went from being her normal self to within 2 weeks not sleeping at all, having major tremors, being confused and disoriented with red-rimmed eyes and looking terrified...it is the worst state I have ever seen her in. It's a neurotoxin with major neurological symptoms that are way worse than the anxiety and depression.
If my mom could shake the anxiety and depression she could absolutely live another 10-15 yrs...she has had many relatives live between 95-99 yrs old. It's absolutely not worth it if she remains in her currently state, but I'm not exactly ready to leave her to die now (since you're concerned about my trauma!).
Anonymous
06/13/2025 21:10
Subject: Extreme anxiety and major depression
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Has she tried a Benzodiazepine? While some doctors are reluctant to prescribe them because they can be addictive, I can’t imagine it would be a concern for an 87 year old. They can work quite well for acute anxiety.
I was just thinking…at 87 can’t you get drugs that might be addictive…but it’s worth it at that age?
OP here. My mom was taking a benzodiazepine for sleep, but not in very high doses, but we took her off it because she had elevated blood ammonia (which has terrible psychological side effects) and benzos can either cause that or make it a lot worse if you already have reduced liver function (which most elderly people have to some degree). Her blood ammonia levels are now normal. For sleep she takes mirtazapine (Remeron) in a very low dose and just started buspar for anxiety.
I also wanted to add that when my mom is in a depressive episode with generalized anxiety disorder she has a completely different personality. 6 months ago she was happy, involved in many activities and not anxious. She was doing well for about 3 yrs. Before that she had another depressive episode that was equally terrible as this one that lasted for 10 months. Prior to that she hadn't had a depressive episode for maybe 15 yrs? It's the contrast that shakes me, and the fact that she came out of the episode 3-4 yrs ago...I think this is triggering a lot of the anger my siblings and I are having. There's also the history from our younger years that my mom basically got better when we finally broke from the stress of taking care of her and told her to f*%* off. Yeah, we realize doing that now would just hasten her death. But we've also talked with our mom about how if she can't shake the anxiety, she likely won't live much longer.[b] Her depressive self honestly repulses me...my pity is all gone and I can't stand the thought of her going out like this.
If this is the best you can do, maybe you all need to take a step back and let paid caregivers be more primary in her life. Shaming her for being unable to “shake” a lifelong mental health condition is not going to work. It is especially not going to work when the threat is “or you will die”; she is 87 and will be dying regardless.
If the benzodiazepine was working, she could consider going back on it. Elevated ammonia in someone who is 87 is not like elevated ammonia in a 47 year old. Cutting her off from treatments that worked for the benefit of her long-term health is insane. She is 87; there is no long term.
Have you gotten treatment for your trauma? It sounds like you could use it. Good thoughts to you.
Anonymous
06/12/2025 20:22
Subject: Extreme anxiety and major depression
Anonymous wrote:Very very gently, she is 87. You say that the endpoint is going to be dying if you don't break the cycle... maybe that's her natural course. Maybe for her it's not cancer or a stroke or heart disease, it's mental illnesses with physical side effects. You and your siblings are making her exercise, taking her to doctors, giving her medications, supplements... You talk of magnetic stimulation and electroshock therapy and ketamine as a nasal spray (?!). There is no correct answer to this, but when is enough enough?
At this point, there could be some mental decline that is boosting the anxiety. My dad did not have a history of depression and anxiety but did develop a hefty amount of anxiety + some OCD habits + some ADHD symptoms as his dementia began. This was before he was officially diagnosed, but in hindsight we can see how it's all connected.
One recommendation I do have is to see a geriatric psychiatrist. Some medications are not effective for the elderly. Their mental pathways are changing, and what once used to be effective treatment may no longer work. Geriatric psychiatrists will be much more aware of this plus other possible issues.
Good luck OP.
Yes, I think you're likely absolutely right. Her mental health issues are the drivers of all her decline. All the alternative therapies are basically hunting for a silver bullet that probably doesn't exist. And at this point she would probably be made even more anxious.
Anonymous
06/12/2025 20:05
Subject: Extreme anxiety and major depression
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Has she tried a Benzodiazepine? While some doctors are reluctant to prescribe them because they can be addictive, I can’t imagine it would be a concern for an 87 year old. They can work quite well for acute anxiety.
I was just thinking…at 87 can’t you get drugs that might be addictive…but it’s worth it at that age?
OP here. My mom was taking a benzodiazepine for sleep, but not in very high doses, but we took her off it because she had elevated blood ammonia (which has terrible psychological side effects) and benzos can either cause that or make it a lot worse if you already have reduced liver function (which most elderly people have to some degree). Her blood ammonia levels are now normal. For sleep she takes mirtazapine (Remeron) in a very low dose and just started buspar for anxiety.
I also wanted to add that when my mom is in a depressive episode with generalized anxiety disorder she has a completely different personality. 6 months ago she was happy, involved in many activities and not anxious. She was doing well for about 3 yrs. Before that she had another depressive episode that was equally terrible as this one that lasted for 10 months. Prior to that she hadn't had a depressive episode for maybe 15 yrs? It's the contrast that shakes me, and the fact that she came out of the episode 3-4 yrs ago...I think this is triggering a lot of the anger my siblings and I are having. There's also the history from our younger years that my mom basically got better when we finally broke from the stress of taking care of her and told her to f*%* off. Yeah, we realize doing that now would just hasten her death. But we've also talked with our mom about how if she can't shake the anxiety, she likely won't live much longer. Her depressive self honestly repulses me...my pity is all gone and I can't stand the thought of her going out like this.
Anonymous
06/12/2025 13:53
Subject: Re:Extreme anxiety and major depression
Anonymous wrote:OP, I have been in your shoes, although my mother eventually did develop dementia.
My mother has been clinically depressed and profoundly anxiety ridden and deeply unhappy all of my life. She also always made it seem like it was other people's responsibility to deal with her, take care of her, that we somehow were the cause but also solution to the black hole of need.
I spent all of my childhood and intermittent times of adult life trying to make my depressed and deeply anxious mother better. She frequently put me in that role, especially once my dad left/couldn't take it anymore.
Finally, in therapy in my 50s, I have come to realize she has borderline personality disorder (waif complex), produced by her own childhood trauma. I know that she was fired by two therapists, who evidently claimed it was impossible to work with her. One of the strange realizations was that I told myself over and over again throughout my life that my mother "loved me so much" because she used to say it all the time ("if anything ever happened to you, I'd kill myself") but I could not recall a single time in which I felt nurtured by her. when I thought about what it felt like to be "loved by her" it was complex feeling of resentment, guilt, drowning, and desire for escape.
I am determined not to continue this cycle with my kids. She is in memory care and I am her main caretaker outside of that. I visit her several times a week, I do what I can to make her world comfortable, to bring her things, to take her out, to spend time with her, but I also have to step back, emotionally. Her illness is neither my fault, nor my responsibility. I am responsible for her care and I believe she is getting the best that 10k/month can provide, but I am not responsible for her life, and I refuse to re-enter the black vortex of need. Even though she says horrible things to me now, (why are you doing this to me? you are so cruel, what has happened to you, I never did anything to you and you lock me up---all in response to why she cannot live with me and why I cannot move into her memory care) I have to let it go. I am very sad for her, I care for her, I bear her no ill will and I do love her, but I cannot save her, I never could, and you can't either.
Finally, to be practical: consult a geriatric psych. They changed my mom's meds. She is on buspar 3x/day and it definitely helps the anxiety, if not the depression. She is on fluoxetine and, now, risperdal for the dementia.
Anonymous
06/08/2025 21:52
Subject: Extreme anxiety and major depression
Different poster, but this thread has been therapy for me. Thank you and sorry to make this about me and my elderly mother. I don't even know which post to highlight.
I related to so much, but won't ramble on. I feel less alone reading about other people's chaotic and mentally ill parents.
I did post a response earlier and it still applies. You detach with love and accept you cannot rescue. You figure out what you can handle. You radically accept the situation. Meds help-finding the right ones and yes there can be falls with or without and sure meds increase the chance of falls. My mom off meds in an abusive, miserable, chaotic storm so there is the risk of alienating anyone who can help her without them.
I related to so much, but won't ramble on. I feel less alone reading about other people's chaotic and mentally ill parents.
I did post a response earlier and it still applies. You detach with love and accept you cannot rescue. You figure out what you can handle. You radically accept the situation. Meds help-finding the right ones and yes there can be falls with or without and sure meds increase the chance of falls. My mom off meds in an abusive, miserable, chaotic storm so there is the risk of alienating anyone who can help her without them.
Anonymous
06/08/2025 21:30
Subject: Re:Extreme anxiety and major depression
Anonymous wrote:PP here. I should also say: the onset of dementia, aging, etc, definitely ramped up her depression and anxiety. For 2 years before she was diagnosed with dementia, she had very real (to her) episodes of intense nerve pain, but with no definable physical cause. Secondly, sometimes its not purposely manipulative, but all the woe is me/i cant handle it anymore gets everyone else worked up to a frenzy--in my moms case, the only time she ever felt "heard" or "understood" in her chaotic pain was when everyone else reached that state. Like she used to rage around, etc, etc, and suddenly when everyone else was thrown off course, chaotic internally, upset, angry, fighting with each other, she would sort of calm down. It was like the only way that she felt her internal chaos was "seen" by others. Even now, she will get really mad that I am not upset alongside with her ("how can you just stand there when I'm in so much emotional pain?" is what she said recently).
My mom is like this. She will start telling me horrible things, like how I’m trying to steal from her or something, and when I finally break down and cry, she calms down. It’s like she needs an emotional reaction out of me and she will force it until she gets it.
Anonymous
06/07/2025 06:14
Subject: Extreme anxiety and major depression
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Has she tried a Benzodiazepine? While some doctors are reluctant to prescribe them because they can be addictive, I can’t imagine it would be a concern for an 87 year old. They can work quite well for acute anxiety.
I was just thinking…at 87 can’t you get drugs that might be addictive…but it’s worth it at that age?
NP. They can cause drowsiness, which can lead to falls, which would open up a whole different can of worms. They need to be used very carefully in the elderly.
Anonymous
06/06/2025 12:46
Subject: Re:Extreme anxiety and major depression
PP here. I should also say: the onset of dementia, aging, etc, definitely ramped up her depression and anxiety. For 2 years before she was diagnosed with dementia, she had very real (to her) episodes of intense nerve pain, but with no definable physical cause. Secondly, sometimes its not purposely manipulative, but all the woe is me/i cant handle it anymore gets everyone else worked up to a frenzy--in my moms case, the only time she ever felt "heard" or "understood" in her chaotic pain was when everyone else reached that state. Like she used to rage around, etc, etc, and suddenly when everyone else was thrown off course, chaotic internally, upset, angry, fighting with each other, she would sort of calm down. It was like the only way that she felt her internal chaos was "seen" by others. Even now, she will get really mad that I am not upset alongside with her ("how can you just stand there when I'm in so much emotional pain?" is what she said recently).
Anonymous
06/06/2025 12:41
Subject: Re:Extreme anxiety and major depression
OP, I have been in your shoes, although my mother eventually did develop dementia.
My mother has been clinically depressed and profoundly anxiety ridden and deeply unhappy all of my life. She also always made it seem like it was other people's responsibility to deal with her, take care of her, that we somehow were the cause but also solution to the black hole of need.
I spent all of my childhood and intermittent times of adult life trying to make my depressed and deeply anxious mother better. She frequently put me in that role, especially once my dad left/couldn't take it anymore.
Finally, in therapy in my 50s, I have come to realize she has borderline personality disorder (waif complex), produced by her own childhood trauma. I know that she was fired by two therapists, who evidently claimed it was impossible to work with her. One of the strange realizations was that I told myself over and over again throughout my life that my mother "loved me so much" because she used to say it all the time ("if anything ever happened to you, I'd kill myself") but I could not recall a single time in which I felt nurtured by her. when I thought about what it felt like to be "loved by her" it was complex feeling of resentment, guilt, drowning, and desire for escape.
I am determined not to continue this cycle with my kids. She is in memory care and I am her main caretaker outside of that. I visit her several times a week, I do what I can to make her world comfortable, to bring her things, to take her out, to spend time with her, but I also have to step back, emotionally. Her illness is neither my fault, nor my responsibility. I am responsible for her care and I believe she is getting the best that 10k/month can provide, but I am not responsible for her life, and I refuse to re-enter the black vortex of need. Even though she says horrible things to me now, (why are you doing this to me? you are so cruel, what has happened to you, I never did anything to you and you lock me up---all in response to why she cannot live with me and why I cannot move into her memory care) I have to let it go. I am very sad for her, I care for her, I bear her no ill will and I do love her, but I cannot save her, I never could, and you can't either.
Finally, to be practical: consult a geriatric psych. They changed my mom's meds. She is on buspar 3x/day and it definitely helps the anxiety, if not the depression. She is on fluoxetine and, now, risperdal for the dementia.
My mother has been clinically depressed and profoundly anxiety ridden and deeply unhappy all of my life. She also always made it seem like it was other people's responsibility to deal with her, take care of her, that we somehow were the cause but also solution to the black hole of need.
I spent all of my childhood and intermittent times of adult life trying to make my depressed and deeply anxious mother better. She frequently put me in that role, especially once my dad left/couldn't take it anymore.
Finally, in therapy in my 50s, I have come to realize she has borderline personality disorder (waif complex), produced by her own childhood trauma. I know that she was fired by two therapists, who evidently claimed it was impossible to work with her. One of the strange realizations was that I told myself over and over again throughout my life that my mother "loved me so much" because she used to say it all the time ("if anything ever happened to you, I'd kill myself") but I could not recall a single time in which I felt nurtured by her. when I thought about what it felt like to be "loved by her" it was complex feeling of resentment, guilt, drowning, and desire for escape.
I am determined not to continue this cycle with my kids. She is in memory care and I am her main caretaker outside of that. I visit her several times a week, I do what I can to make her world comfortable, to bring her things, to take her out, to spend time with her, but I also have to step back, emotionally. Her illness is neither my fault, nor my responsibility. I am responsible for her care and I believe she is getting the best that 10k/month can provide, but I am not responsible for her life, and I refuse to re-enter the black vortex of need. Even though she says horrible things to me now, (why are you doing this to me? you are so cruel, what has happened to you, I never did anything to you and you lock me up---all in response to why she cannot live with me and why I cannot move into her memory care) I have to let it go. I am very sad for her, I care for her, I bear her no ill will and I do love her, but I cannot save her, I never could, and you can't either.
Finally, to be practical: consult a geriatric psych. They changed my mom's meds. She is on buspar 3x/day and it definitely helps the anxiety, if not the depression. She is on fluoxetine and, now, risperdal for the dementia.
Anonymous
06/06/2025 08:39
Subject: Extreme anxiety and major depression
You really need therapy to stop being so codependent in all this. You have to come to terms with the fact that this is who she is and trying to make an 87 year old do CBT workbooks and get dressed by 9am is a waste of time.
I can relate to a lot of what you have been through. My dad was a high functioning alcoholic that simply was never able to address many of our emotional needs and we grew up too fast. But my sisters and I have long ago made peace with it. He will likely drink himself to death and that is fine.
He recently ended up in the hospital due to a combo of some legit health issues and drinking. I had a conversation with him about what he thought his best life looked like. I told him my sisters and I could help smooth the path to alcohol rehab and brainstormed ideas about how he could live and we could help make sure he had food, etc. He is rich but would literally starve to death rather than be bothered to scramble himself some eggs or DoorDash. But I also told him that if his best life was to go down to his boat and drink himself to death, that was fine — none of us would stop him. I wasn’t angry or mean about it. He is 78 years old and competent to make his own choices.
Instead, he has basically begged his wife to take him back. So, he isn’t out problem. And when she inevitably throws him out again, he may die from alcohol on his boat before my sisters and I even know they have split again. That’s fine. It is his choice. And the truth is that it becomes harder and harder to address mental health issues as you age. His functional alcoholism is dysfunctional at this point.
We don’t hate him. We aren’t angry. He is just sort of this sad and pathetic creature. He missed out on a ton of great relationships with his kids and grandkids, which is his loss. We have moved past having any particular expectations of him. But we certainly don’t spend our own time and energy trying to change him.
For me personally, it has helped to focus on other relationships that are fulfilling. In my case, I have an aunt and uncle that take a major interest in our lives and act as surrogate grandparents. If you have other friends or family to help you fill your void, focus your energies there — on people who have the capabilities to take an interest in you (and you in them).
I can relate to a lot of what you have been through. My dad was a high functioning alcoholic that simply was never able to address many of our emotional needs and we grew up too fast. But my sisters and I have long ago made peace with it. He will likely drink himself to death and that is fine.
He recently ended up in the hospital due to a combo of some legit health issues and drinking. I had a conversation with him about what he thought his best life looked like. I told him my sisters and I could help smooth the path to alcohol rehab and brainstormed ideas about how he could live and we could help make sure he had food, etc. He is rich but would literally starve to death rather than be bothered to scramble himself some eggs or DoorDash. But I also told him that if his best life was to go down to his boat and drink himself to death, that was fine — none of us would stop him. I wasn’t angry or mean about it. He is 78 years old and competent to make his own choices.
Instead, he has basically begged his wife to take him back. So, he isn’t out problem. And when she inevitably throws him out again, he may die from alcohol on his boat before my sisters and I even know they have split again. That’s fine. It is his choice. And the truth is that it becomes harder and harder to address mental health issues as you age. His functional alcoholism is dysfunctional at this point.
We don’t hate him. We aren’t angry. He is just sort of this sad and pathetic creature. He missed out on a ton of great relationships with his kids and grandkids, which is his loss. We have moved past having any particular expectations of him. But we certainly don’t spend our own time and energy trying to change him.
For me personally, it has helped to focus on other relationships that are fulfilling. In my case, I have an aunt and uncle that take a major interest in our lives and act as surrogate grandparents. If you have other friends or family to help you fill your void, focus your energies there — on people who have the capabilities to take an interest in you (and you in them).
Anonymous
06/05/2025 21:20
Subject: Extreme anxiety and major depression
Adults not faults.