Spanking is legal. You do not see the whole picture as you are not there that much. If you want to stay part of their lives you need to MYOB. They will cut you off if you interfere like you want to.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because the parents also have mental health disorders. This what abuse looks like, OP. Impaired adults attempting to parent impaired children. And by impaired, they could have high IQs, be successful professionals, etc. But they're emotionally stunted and overwhelmed.

My son with ADHD and autism was very difficult when he was younger (and only tolerable in his preteens and teens because he was on meds). We had to completely overhaul our parenting, but there was still a lot of stress in the house, even without yelling or hitting...

If you think your stress is bad, think how badly the members of that household are stressed out.

You need to a come to Jesus moment. Sit them down, tell them they're abusing their kids, and that they need professional help with autism psychologists and therapists, and possibly also meds for ADHD. And that they themselves would benefit from parenting classes for children with special needs, and possibly therapy for themselves as well. That the ultimate goal of parenting is to not add on more trauma, but to raise a child who is relatively functional, with the least amount of conflict.

This is what I've been thinking of doing. That they are harming and need help. They know I did a lot of therapy myself, they agree that our parents did a lot of damage, but they are also practicing pretty extreme religion that believes non-Christian psychologists are dangerous to their faith.

Thanks for how you've worded this I appreciate it.

Oh no. This makes me think of Ruby Franke who was really close to actually killing her kids.

I think one piece of the puzzle you are likely missing is that the kids’ behavior may just be naturally more challenging than your kids. So to the extent you are blaming them for creating their kids’ behavior that’s not fair. Being a more “collaborative” parent cannot change a child’s temperament fundamentally. You parent the way you do at least in part because your kids are easier - not the other way around.

That said, their parenting is obviously dysfunctional right now. I would do some research into Christian parenting support that is evidence based. Like a Mormon version of PCIT.

Ultimately all you can do is stay in their lives as a stable and accepting adult. But at the appropriate time you may still need to confront the parents or call CPS.

Oh my word, this. They tried the conventional way. It didn’t work. They have no skills. They now spank because it lets them feel like they’re trying. Maybe spanking inspires temporary compliance, which they mistake for it “working”. You blame the spanking, and while it is making things worse, it’s not the cause of this mess. It’s a symptom.

You can also look into Christian counseling centers in their area. There are licensed therapists who are also Christians that they might be willing to see.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because the parents also have mental health disorders. This what abuse looks like, OP. Impaired adults attempting to parent impaired children. And by impaired, they could have high IQs, be successful professionals, etc. But they're emotionally stunted and overwhelmed.

My son with ADHD and autism was very difficult when he was younger (and only tolerable in his preteens and teens because he was on meds). We had to completely overhaul our parenting, but there was still a lot of stress in the house, even without yelling or hitting...

If you think your stress is bad, think how badly the members of that household are stressed out.

You need to a come to Jesus moment. Sit them down, tell them they're abusing their kids, and that they need professional help with autism psychologists and therapists, and possibly also meds for ADHD. And that they themselves would benefit from parenting classes for children with special needs, and possibly therapy for themselves as well. That the ultimate goal of parenting is to not add on more trauma, but to raise a child who is relatively functional, with the least amount of conflict.

This is what I've been thinking of doing. That they are harming and need help. They know I did a lot of therapy myself, they agree that our parents did a lot of damage, but they are also practicing pretty extreme religion that believes non-Christian psychologists are dangerous to their faith.

Thanks for how you've worded this I appreciate it.

Oh no. This makes me think of Ruby Franke who was really close to actually killing her kids.

I think one piece of the puzzle you are likely missing is that the kids’ behavior may just be naturally more challenging than your kids. So to the extent you are blaming them for creating their kids’ behavior that’s not fair. Being a more “collaborative” parent cannot change a child’s temperament fundamentally. You parent the way you do at least in part because your kids are easier - not the other way around.

That said, their parenting is obviously dysfunctional right now. I would do some research into Christian parenting support that is evidence based. Like a Mormon version of PCIT.

Ultimately all you can do is stay in their lives as a stable and accepting adult. But at the appropriate time you may still need to confront the parents or call CPS.

Anonymous wrote:What do you want to do about it? Call CPS? Are you willing to take the kids if they go into foster care? Probably not.

Want to help? Offer to pay for and take the child to therapies. Offer to babysit.

This.
MYOB

I do not think the kids would be removed from the home in this circumstance. So you will need to balance how strongly you address your concerns with your brother/SIL (and/or CPS) with the risk of losing access to the kids if brother/SIL cut you off.

I feel very sad for these kids because it sounds like they are experiencing a whole lot of punishment and little warmth/love. The research shows that there’s a big impact of having even just one warm/loving adult in your life outside of your parents. I think that’s especially true in situations where the parents are not up to par. If I were in your situation, I would focus on being that adult for my niece and nephew. I would offer to take them out individually for 1-1 time, and invite them over to my house for visits as frequently as possible.

NP. I feel you so much OP. My sister has kids slightly younger and who probably have ASD and/or ADHD. She won’t let them be tested. She and her husband are divorcing and she’s being a terrible parent. She spanked one of the kids for saying she should quit telling lies when my sister was saying horrible things about their father.

I live far away. I can’t offer to babysit. All I can do is be a shoulder to cry on. It sucks. In my case, at least if my sister is deemed bad enough to lose custody, their father is loving and competent and would have more time with them. In your case the parents are a team so if they’re not able to parent the kids wind up in foster care. Sometimes that works out ok. I’d stick with the devil I know. Of course if you’re willing and able to take the kids if their parents are deemed unfit, that could be better, but take on that fight and lose and the kids lose you as an ally. You know their parents won’t keep you in their lives if they feel threatened by you.

People like bold talk about reporting abusive parents, but often it just makes parents angrier and doesn’t really help the kids. Sometimes the best you can do is have your own relationship with the kids, prove yourself trustworthy to them, and be a soft place to land if they need it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m someone who spanked my kids occasionally when they were younger, and that got me flamed on here. I know that most parents on this board disagree with it, but it was effective with my kids and they’re super successful and going to top colleges, etc. We have a great relationship and all that.

That said, I definitely believe very strongly that there is a right way to use spanking and many wrong ways to use it that can be harmful. It sounds like they may be using it in a harmful way. The problem is, from your perspective, you are never going to convince them to change if you are blanket-opposed to any form of physical correction that they might use. The only hope here to affect change would be with something along the lines of my perspective that there is an effective And calm to do it that does not threaten a kids, basic security, and of course there is a wrong way.

Typos are due to voice dictation

There really is no "right" way to hit people you love, especially small helpless people.

Particularly small, helpless, neurodivergent people. But all small people. And all people you love. And even those you don't, except in self defense.

OP, it is hard to give a complete answer, because there are a number of unknowns. We don't know the jurisdiction, we don't know the level of commitment you can undertake. You obviously love the kids. You know they are being abused and medically neglected. Because there are all of these unknowns, you should probably talk to an attorney to help you figure out how to intervene.

Anonymous wrote:I’m someone who spanked my kids occasionally when they were younger, and that got me flamed on here. I know that most parents on this board disagree with it, but it was effective with my kids and they’re super successful and going to top colleges, etc. We have a great relationship and all that.

That said, I definitely believe very strongly that there is a right way to use spanking and many wrong ways to use it that can be harmful. It sounds like they may be using it in a harmful way. The problem is, from your perspective, you are never going to convince them to change if you are blanket-opposed to any form of physical correction that they might use. The only hope here to affect change would be with something along the lines of my perspective that there is an effective And calm to do it that does not threaten a kids, basic security, and of course there is a wrong way.

Typos are due to voice dictation

There really is no "right" way to hit people you love, especially small helpless people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you mean by a real relationship with their kids? Their kids are 3 and 5.

What authorities told them not to spank?

I don’t spank my children but your way of describing this is very weird.

I mean like they don't seem like they love their kids or that they don't seem to see their kids as unique people with their own personalities and strengths challenges etc. I'm not sure how to describe it.

The people who assessed the child and the teachers/principal of the school both told them that spanking is very detrimental.

My dad used to whail on my brother and I think he's doing that and it is a little triggering for me to know that he is repeating all of that.

Unless you suspect actual physical abuse, stay out of it.

Spanking is actual physical abuse.

OP, some PEP classes are held at a church in Maryland. I drove 90 minutes round trip to get there and it was worth it. If you are in that neck of the woods and close enough to provide childcare while they both attend classes, that would be a huge help. If only one parent goes, it puts one in the position of explaining it to the other.

One reason I suggested ABA earlier is because it includes in-home parent training. The situation you described sounds really intense, but I’m not sure CPS will do anything. I called them about a neglect issue and they said they couldn’t do anything. I’m not telling you not to call, but I’m saying you need to do other things to help as well.

Unless you feel that the kids are actually in eminent physical danger, I’d stay out of it. I would not expect that they would take it well and wouldn’t be surprised if they cut you for completely.

With ADHD and austistic kids it can be hard to interpret when they are hearing and processing what you say. The parents are likely exhausted and feel shut out by their children.

It might help to first acknowledge that you see how difficult it is to connect. If they get help learning to really see and understand their own kids, it is possible they will discover the kids have taken in much than they realize or seem to show.

If you can somehow help them (take the kids, find behavioral therapists and give them a list of people you investigated, etc.) get the support to flip from anger and frustration that’s only reactive, to learning how to structure interactions with their children, that might help.

Some people on the autism spectrum internalize other people’s behavior deeply. Even when you don’t read it on their faces. You’re right. You’re niece is not learning how to interact in a compassionate human way.

Sympathy for their struggle and helping them find support could help.

Parents are permitted to spank kids so there’s really not much you can do about it unless you’re going to call CPS—and good luck with that because what you’ve described sounds awful but isn’t going to result in any action by CPS.

You sound judgy, TBH. It’s easy for you to have opinions about the way they are raising their kids but you don't live in that house and you said yourself you don't see them often. Offer to take the kids for a weekend or a week in the summer if you’re worried. Let them stay with you as often as possible so that they can experience how other families interact. But you aren’t going to change your brother or your SIL.

^take them on weekends, during summer, etc.

I would try to take the kids to give everyone a break, OP.

You can’t change your B or SIL but you can be a refuge for the kids. If you have that convo the adults will likely cut you off.

If they were to be removed, no guarantees they will end up somewhere safe.