Anonymous wrote:50/50 with a right of first refusal, for when a parent travels or works late (or “works late”).

If parent b wants 50/50, I'd make sure you get in writing first refusal.

Anonymous wrote:Is Spouse A working to provide accommodation, house equity, food, clothing, extracurriculars, education, healthcare, vacations, college savings etc for the children? Is Spouse A's salary and work what allows Spouse B to be the primary caregiver?If yes, then they are just as involved in raising their kids as the stay at home caregiver. Someone has to be the one working to pay for all the expenses that children require and trying to penalize them for that by taking time with their children away from them is a bad move. Just like stay at home parents feel they have a right to access the salary of the working parent, the working parnt has a right to access the rewards of the stay at home parent in terms of their children.

A parent who works and therefore is less hands on is no different from a parent who stays at home and is less responsible financially.

OP here. Sorry the scenarios were confusing. In all three scenarios, Spouse A (not Spouse B) is the primary caregiver for the children in the ways I described (logistics, school run, sheer hours with kids. Both parents love the children to be clear).

There is no stay at home parent. In all three scenarios, both spouses work. Both spouses work roughly the same number of office hours per week (although Spouse B's job involves travel and frequent evening socialization, sometimes with clients, but usually just work friends). Both spouses have contributed roughly the same $ over the years. Spouse A has taken on more with the children because Spouse A's work had some amount of flexibility--could for instance take a break in the evening to be with the children and then finish work later in the evening; could work from home on a sick day; etc. The alternative was a full-time nanny to care for the children as primary caregiver, but neither spouse wanted that.

Is Spouse A working to provide accommodation, house equity, food, clothing, extracurriculars, education, healthcare, vacations, college savings etc for the children? Is Spouse A's salary and work what allows Spouse B to be the primary caregiver?If yes, then they are just as involved in raising their kids as the stay at home caregiver. Someone has to be the one working to pay for all the expenses that children require and trying to penalize them for that by taking time with their children away from them is a bad move. Just like stay at home parents feel they have a right to access the salary of the working parent, the working parnt has a right to access the rewards of the stay at home parent in terms of their children.

A parent who works and therefore is less hands on is no different from a parent who stays at home and is less responsible financially.

Anonymous wrote:As others have said - its all about giving them a story to save face / feel like a good dad. Frame it as maintaining the routine for the kids, indicate (if you will) that dad can make additional plans with kids when he's free and that if his job situation changes you'll be open to changes too. They need to be able to tell themselves that they're doing what's best for the kids, not worry they're being perceived as not wanting or prioritizing the kids (even if that's reality)

It’s sad how hostile you are to dads. There are many good and active dads. You just picked badly. Or, you are the problem.

OP here, returning after things got quite busy. THANK YOU. Lots of very good practical evidence in this thread.

If 57/43 (5-4-3-2) poster is still around and reading can you lay out how this schedule works exactly? Is it that out of every 14 days you get the 5 and the 3? What day is the start date so he doesn't wind up with every weekend?

Anonymous wrote:As others have said - its all about giving them a story to save face / feel like a good dad. Frame it as maintaining the routine for the kids, indicate (if you will) that dad can make additional plans with kids when he's free and that if his job situation changes you'll be open to changes too. They need to be able to tell themselves that they're doing what's best for the kids, not worry they're being perceived as not wanting or prioritizing the kids (even if that's reality)

Agree with this. My XH wants to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, not have his personal life weighed down by kids. He had zero interest in 50/50 and never asked for it. I framed it as maintaining routine & stability at home and allowing flexibility bc he travels so much (both work and to entertain himself). He sees kids about one night a week for dinner or an overnight, which seems to work for everyone because he's interested in "visiting" with them but not actually parenting. He prefers to spend his time with his new GF whom my kids don't want to be around bc she's not nice to them. My kids still have a relationship with their dad but they also seem to be figuring out he's not really invested in raising them. He thinks he's a great dad because he pays child support.

As others have said - its all about giving them a story to save face / feel like a good dad. Frame it as maintaining the routine for the kids, indicate (if you will) that dad can make additional plans with kids when he's free and that if his job situation changes you'll be open to changes too. They need to be able to tell themselves that they're doing what's best for the kids, not worry they're being perceived as not wanting or prioritizing the kids (even if that's reality)

My friend recently negotiated a divorce settlement with the sort of situation you describe (frequent social and work travel, not nearly as involved in day to day as mom, both parents work similar hours with similar flexibility but mom uses time off work to care for their 5 children and dad tends to travel, go out, play rec sports, etc without the family which leaves him gone most dinners and some bedtimes). Dad made about 3x more than mom and also had family money. Anyways, mom successfully negotiated the 80s style arrangement where dad took the kids out to dinner every Tuesday night and kids spent every other weekend at dad’s house. Mom also got much of the money. Dad didn’t contest any of this though- he didn’t ask for more and didn’t argue the financial side

We did 50/50 with right of first refusal when other parent travels. I also added a clause that if one parent takes the child more than the other, the other parent has to pay per diem child support for each day in excess of seven days per calendar year.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks for the advice. I do not think spouse truly wants 50/50, but also think spouse cant imagine not appearing as if 50/50 was wanted.

I got mine to agree to 43/57. (Basically instead of 5/5/2/2, we do 5/4/3/2). My STBX was always gone doing things for himself . . . I'd say he spent at least 50 nights a year on "me time" or guys' trips, in addition to work travel. He worked out every morning and got coffee after with friends, and he did happy hours and concerts most nights after work (in the guise of this being "networking"). Weekends he was either off doing hobbies or attending festivals.

When he was home, he took the kids out to do stuff. He's basically incapable of sitting at home (probably has ADHD).

So when we were talking about how to split custody in coparenting therapy, I came prepared with the schedule I wanted. I pointed out how this way I could schedule the kids' activities and appointments for my days so he wouldn't have to do those, and how he'd have time for his "important work stuff" and hobbies and stuff. He cried and said he felt like he was being "punished for being the breadwinner" (disgustingly, his AP used those same exact words in her session with the same therapist), but he did agree to it. I said, "Are you SURE You want Wednesday and Thursday nights with the kids, because you like to go out a lot on those nights" and he cried some more and promised that he would plan all of his things for the nights when he doesn't have them. Well guess who still goes out a lot on his nights with the kids. They're teenagers, so they don't need an adult at home, but still. His vision of himself as a parent and the reality are very far apart.

So yeah, I got mine to agree to this split. He does feel guilty and while he's a big doofus, he has always been really complimentary and appreciative of my relationship with the kids (he often gets verklempt and says what a good mother I am . . . I'm not sure if he notices that I never return the compliment, lol). So I think he viewed it as him being some magnanimous hero who let me have something precious, since I'm just some sad sack he abandoned for someone else and the kids are all I have left. Whatever, as long as he agreed.

So think on what actually matters to your STBX and see if you can frame it in a way that allows him to feel heroic and generous.

And actually, I see them way more than 57% of the time. They stop by after school. I attend all their activities. If their lessons or appointments fall on his days, I usually take them. And he often gives up a night here or there for work travel. There's rarely a day when I don't see at least one of my kids. If anything, I need to have some boundaries around time for myself.

Anonymous wrote:I received primary custody in a strongly 50/50 fathers rights states. aexH travelled 80-100 nights a year and I was primary parent to three kids 11 and under since birth. He got every other weekend and one off week overnight.

From a judge? Or was this a settlement?

Anonymous wrote:50/50 with a right of first refusal, for when a parent travels or works late (or “works late”).

I'd see if you can get child support to automatically adjust if right of first refusal means you have the kids significantly more than 50/50.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks for the advice. I do not think spouse truly wants 50/50, but also think spouse cant imagine not appearing as if 50/50 was wanted.

One thing that we did in our family is figure out ways to make offers that let the parent that wanted less save face, and that gave them things that were important to them.

+1.

My spouse was C but I would never try to fight in court for more than 50%. I’m a lawyer and I know how expensive and damaging that would be.

You need to get him to agree to less than 50% voluntarily.

The way I did it was by not talking about percentages at all. I offered a schedule I thought was good for the kids (about 30-70) plus an open door flexibility for evening time and all the time he wanted for holidays and summers. I did not ask for additional child support or assets.

Anonymous wrote:I received primary custody in a strongly 50/50 fathers rights states. aexH travelled 80-100 nights a year and I was primary parent to three kids 11 and under since birth. He got every other weekend and one off week overnight.

Can I ask a really dumb question?

I see this often, that people get every other weekend and then something on the "off" week. But which is the off week?

Is it Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and then 3 days off and Thursday and then 8 days off before the next Friday?

Or is it Friday, Saturday, Sunday, 8 days off, Monday night, and then 3 days off?