Anonymous wrote:Before anyone gets too horny for the idea of their kids being alone on the university track, a few data points:

1) The German system was deemed so discriminatory that they are being forced to integrate the "academic" track by human rights courts, as the previous system systematically tracked immigrants and the children of immigrants onto the "vocational" track

2) Public satisfaction and test scores for German schools is at an all-time post-war low: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-schools-study/a-66669093

"In one instance, the INSM study looked into fourth graders' reading and listening tests from 2011 and 2021, and found that Bavaria is the only state making "minimal" progress. In fact, while fourth graders from Bremen placed last in 2011, their level of reading and listening comprehension became the new average for Germany by 2021."

Finally someone who gets it. If we had the German model then all minority kids would be selected for a vocational track. No thanks.

Freedom isn’t free. Our flexible labor market and freedom is why our country is so powerful economically.

No way. The US economy is so much stronger than of Germany. American innovation, resources, labor market etc. Germany is your typical Western European country that only has high living standards because we pay for their defense.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you want your government to think for you? You can send your child to any kind of school you want, college prep or vocational.
American schools are more convenient, offering both in the same building.

Uh, no. This is rarely the case.

I'm not sure what aspect of the PP's post you're disagreeing with. There's a spectrum of options in US schools. You can adjust your courses to be more college prep or vocational focused without necessarily going into a special program.

The only issue I have with vocations is that they often involve physical labor. That may be okay in your 20s and 30s but after that, I can't imagine doing that physical work into my 60s.

I would be completely happy if my kids took the vocational track. In fact I am encouraging my sons to be electricians. They'll make way more money that way.
This will never happen here because if all the tracks are not perfectly balanced racially it will cause an uproar. And if they go to great lengths to make them all perfectly balanced racially it will demean the whole system.
Frankly I suspect that as Germany becomes more diverse this system will be dismantled there as well.

Before anyone gets too horny for the idea of their kids being alone on the university track, a few data points:

1) The German system was deemed so discriminatory that they are being forced to integrate the "academic" track by human rights courts, as the previous system systematically tracked immigrants and the children of immigrants onto the "vocational" track

2) Public satisfaction and test scores for German schools is at an all-time post-war low: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-schools-study/a-66669093

"In one instance, the INSM study looked into fourth graders' reading and listening tests from 2011 and 2021, and found that Bavaria is the only state making "minimal" progress. In fact, while fourth graders from Bremen placed last in 2011, their level of reading and listening comprehension became the new average for Germany by 2021."

Anonymous wrote:Why do you want your government to think for you? You can send your child to any kind of school you want, college prep or vocational.
American schools are more convenient, offering both in the same building.

Uh, no. This is rarely the case.

Anonymous wrote:OP,
I get it. I think a lot of people posting don’t really understand how the German system works. It’s not as if you are doomed to some low-level, unimportant job if you fail to show success in 4th grade.

The school choices and offerings are robust and they make sense. No, not everybody should go to college. And it’s not just because of intellect/ability; society doesn’t need everybody to go to college.

German vocational programs are robust, and they lead to very important jobs that provide for stable living. Their on-the-job apprenticeships set students up for success in a way we don’t.

+1 the programs in the vocational track are often fantastic career paths with good earning potential. They just aren't jobs that require a college degree. In the US we just wind up requiring a college degree for someone to go into marketing or video editing or some other field that is not particularly academic (which doesn't mean it's easy or doesn't require refined skills, just that they are not skills that require a four-year university degree). Worse the US has even started requiring masters for some of these jobs. Truly confounding.

I would be 100% a-ok if my kid wound up in vocational high school in order to pursue a field they liked and were adept at, AND could enter at 19 instead of waiting until 22 and having to go through tough college admissions processes and getting a liberal arts degree that required them to take courses in areas they actively disliked or struggled with.

I would also be happy if my kid wound up in the academic track due to their interest and aptitude and excited that they could pursue that track with other kids happy to be there and invested in academics to a similar degree.

We have a really broken system in the US in terms of getting people the training and education they need to pursue fields for which they are suited and acually want to be in. Kids hate it, parents hate it. It's not efficient and it's incredibly expensive. It's good for certain college who sell degrees (rather than truly educating students) and for the whole complex of schools and services who prey on people struggling to navigate the system (the entire college prep industry for instance). But that's it.

I actually agree with you OP, and I’ve lived in Germany. But the US would just not accept it, because our race/class system has developed in such a way that many parents believe that vocational work is beneath their children.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP,
I get it. I think a lot of people posting don’t really understand how the German system works. It’s not as if you are doomed to some low-level, unimportant job if you fail to show success in 4th grade.

The school choices and offerings are robust and they make sense. No, not everybody should go to college. And it’s not just because of intellect/ability; society doesn’t need everybody to go to college.

German vocational programs are robust, and they lead to very important jobs that provide for stable living. Their on-the-job apprenticeships set students up for success in a way we don’t.

My issue with the German system is that the tracking decisions are made very early. One of things I love about America is that we keep the educational doors open and embrace reinvention.

ITA. Essentially deciding a kid’s fate even before puberty doesn’t seem right to me.

Anonymous wrote:I bet you the second one kid from an uplimental class family gets put in the vocational track. The parents sues the program out of existence

This is likely the case. The US is an inherently "aspirant" society, focused on wealth, wealth and more wealth.

I bet you the second one kid from an uplimental class family gets put in the vocational track. The parents sues the program out of existence

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP,
I get it. I think a lot of people posting don’t really understand how the German system works. It’s not as if you are doomed to some low-level, unimportant job if you fail to show success in 4th grade.

The school choices and offerings are robust and they make sense. No, not everybody should go to college. And it’s not just because of intellect/ability; society doesn’t need everybody to go to college.

German vocational programs are robust, and they lead to very important jobs that provide for stable living. Their on-the-job apprenticeships set students up for success in a way we don’t.

In Germany, vocational skills are respected unlike here.
Because over there, the graduates of their programs are understood to be thoroughly knowledgeable about their trade. For example, the assumption here is that factory made is cheaper than custom made. Over there, it is the opposite. The factory made is more expensive and very well made because those folks really know what they are doing. And they are very competitively compensated too as the unions are strong there.

Also, a lot more jobs are considered vocational track in Germany such as bookkeeping or
receptionsist/secretary

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP,
I get it. I think a lot of people posting don’t really understand how the German system works. It’s not as if you are doomed to some low-level, unimportant job if you fail to show success in 4th grade.

The school choices and offerings are robust and they make sense. No, not everybody should go to college. And it’s not just because of intellect/ability; society doesn’t need everybody to go to college.

German vocational programs are robust, and they lead to very important jobs that provide for stable living. Their on-the-job apprenticeships set students up for success in a way we don’t.

In Germany, vocational skills are respected unlike here.
Because over there, the graduates of their programs are understood to be thoroughly knowledgeable about their trade. For example, the assumption here is that factory made is cheaper than custom made. Over there, it is the opposite. The factory made is more expensive and very well made because those folks really know what they are doing. And they are very competitively compensated too as the unions are strong there.

+1. There needs to be a shift in mentality in the US. Until then vocational/trade schools will continue to be kicked to the curb, overlooked and looked down upon.

Which auto program was cut by MCPS?

Yet they cant win a war