Anonymous
Post 09/25/2024 22:08     Subject: health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm positive Dr. House started all this!

I was reading about these Tufts U athletes hospitalized for muscle tissue breakdown. Article had a link for the medical term and I checked it out. Went to Cleveland Clinic which provided info about causes, symptoms, prognosis, etc. And consistently referred to the color of one's pee among the signs of the condition.

WTH is wrong with saying "urine" or "feces" or "bowel movement"? I haven't noticed the word "boob" in such literature but maybe I need to pay more attention. Is "veejay" going to be next when epxlaining pelvic exams???


I'm a medical professional, former trial attorney. When I went to trial advocacy school I was urged repeatedly to take the vocabulary down several notches - I have a graduate degree in literature and read most of Dickens before I ever went to college.

Most jurors are at a 6-8th grade vocabulary level. That's the average patient searching online for medical information as well. Some of these people have some college or even a degree, but that was years ago and just like kids over the summer between grades, people don't retain everything they learned. They naturally regress to a mean of communication that is mirrored by their daily relationships and interactions in the world.

Lots of people don't know the words urine and feces. There is nothing wrong with doctors and medical websites using 'pee' and 'poo' to ensure that knowledge is transmitted effectively.

Get off your high horse, poster.


The US has an 85% high school graduation rate. Sounds like juries are being selected for a specific reason.


I'm not sure what your point is, poster?

Our jury system works very well and in my experience as a criminal trial attorney, it generally draws a random slice of the community with a cross section of life experience. Beyond that, it's the job of the court and lawyers to utilize the voir dire process to weed out biases in jurors. Some jurors will be highly educated

But as far as average education level - yes, we have an 85% high school graduation rate. How many of those people do you think will ever read another book again in their adult life by choice and not because they were required to do so by further education or by an employment requirement?

I recently listened to the podcast "Sold a Story" and was dismayed to learn about the current state of reading education in American public schools. Suffice to say, it is not a good situation.

Here's some random stats from Literacyinc.com:

15% of the United States population has specific reading disorders.
46% of American adults cannot understand the labels on their pharmaceutical prescriptions.
56% of young people claim they read fewer than 10 books a year.
50% of U.S. adults are unable to read an eighth grade level book.
33% of U.S. high school graduates never read a book after high school.
80% of U.S. families have not purchased a book this year.
50% of books started are never read to completion.
70% of adults have not been in a bookstore in the past five years.
15% of U.S. students are dyslexic.


Less than 25% of the US population has completed a bachelor's degree. Less than 15% have completed any advanced degree from MA to MD, JD, PhD.

People who finished high school and then never picked up another book the rest of their adult life except perhaps the holy book at their house of worship are just not very well read and need to have information presented at a middle school level at best. And no, online resources for medical information is not the appropriate place to be attempting to change this reality; the role of the technical writer is to meet the reader where s/he is at and maximize effective communication of essential information.


My point is that despite the increases in "educational attainment," there has been a decrease in literary proficiency starting in the 1970s. Given that mathematical education has always lagged behind, the average high school graduate in the US has an eight grade reading level and fifth grade mathematics proficiency. Perhaps we could educate the citizens instead of regressing to the mean?


By all means, let’s address the shortcomings in public education in meaningful ways and raise the literacy and critical thinking skills of our citizenry - I’m all for that.

But there are powers that be who are very much against that objective- certain politicians and corporate interests who feel exactly the same as the one who let slip the truth that they ‘love the poorly educated.’ They want the people to be marks.

I digress.

The point is that the place for that raising of average educational attainment is not the Cleveland Clinic or other medical informational website where they make the choice to use basic language because that best meets the needs of the widest possible audience to their page and they aren’t too worried about the highly educated some of whom will get bent out of shape over the use of words like poo and pee.
Anonymous
Post 09/25/2024 21:20     Subject: health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
It seems like this forum gets questions pretty often with lab results etc. asking "what does this mean?" but then when medical literature is written this way, with words like "pee", it comes off as patronizing to the educated DCUMer. It's hard to straddle that line between "written for a medical professional" and "written for the 100 IQ average person".
Anonymous
Post 09/25/2024 21:14     Subject: health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
I also noticed this - last week I was dealing with a situation with my colon and could not believe that the online source - it was Cleveland Clinic or something reasonably trustworthy - kept using the term poop!
Anonymous
Post 09/25/2024 20:28     Subject: health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm positive Dr. House started all this!

I was reading about these Tufts U athletes hospitalized for muscle tissue breakdown. Article had a link for the medical term and I checked it out. Went to Cleveland Clinic which provided info about causes, symptoms, prognosis, etc. And consistently referred to the color of one's pee among the signs of the condition.

WTH is wrong with saying "urine" or "feces" or "bowel movement"? I haven't noticed the word "boob" in such literature but maybe I need to pay more attention. Is "veejay" going to be next when epxlaining pelvic exams???


I'm a medical professional, former trial attorney. When I went to trial advocacy school I was urged repeatedly to take the vocabulary down several notches - I have a graduate degree in literature and read most of Dickens before I ever went to college.

Most jurors are at a 6-8th grade vocabulary level. That's the average patient searching online for medical information as well. Some of these people have some college or even a degree, but that was years ago and just like kids over the summer between grades, people don't retain everything they learned. They naturally regress to a mean of communication that is mirrored by their daily relationships and interactions in the world.

Lots of people don't know the words urine and feces. There is nothing wrong with doctors and medical websites using 'pee' and 'poo' to ensure that knowledge is transmitted effectively.

Get off your high horse, poster.


The US has an 85% high school graduation rate. Sounds like juries are being selected for a specific reason.


I'm not sure what your point is, poster?

Our jury system works very well and in my experience as a criminal trial attorney, it generally draws a random slice of the community with a cross section of life experience. Beyond that, it's the job of the court and lawyers to utilize the voir dire process to weed out biases in jurors. Some jurors will be highly educated

But as far as average education level - yes, we have an 85% high school graduation rate. How many of those people do you think will ever read another book again in their adult life by choice and not because they were required to do so by further education or by an employment requirement?

I recently listened to the podcast "Sold a Story" and was dismayed to learn about the current state of reading education in American public schools. Suffice to say, it is not a good situation.

Here's some random stats from Literacyinc.com:

15% of the United States population has specific reading disorders.
46% of American adults cannot understand the labels on their pharmaceutical prescriptions.
56% of young people claim they read fewer than 10 books a year.
50% of U.S. adults are unable to read an eighth grade level book.
33% of U.S. high school graduates never read a book after high school.
80% of U.S. families have not purchased a book this year.
50% of books started are never read to completion.
70% of adults have not been in a bookstore in the past five years.
15% of U.S. students are dyslexic.


Less than 25% of the US population has completed a bachelor's degree. Less than 15% have completed any advanced degree from MA to MD, JD, PhD.

People who finished high school and then never picked up another book the rest of their adult life except perhaps the holy book at their house of worship are just not very well read and need to have information presented at a middle school level at best. And no, online resources for medical information is not the appropriate place to be attempting to change this reality; the role of the technical writer is to meet the reader where s/he is at and maximize effective communication of essential information.


My point is that despite the increases in "educational attainment," there has been a decrease in literary proficiency starting in the 1970s. Given that mathematical education has always lagged behind, the average high school graduate in the US has an eight grade reading level and fifth grade mathematics proficiency. Perhaps we could educate the citizens instead of regressing to the mean?
Anonymous
Post 09/25/2024 14:17     Subject: health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Medical professional here. Nothing is wrong with using urine and feces. However, a lot of us have been taught at some point or other that when talking about medical details, assume most people have a 5th grade education about things. You'd be surprised what people don't know and are too embarrassed to ask. It isn't about talking down to anyone , it's just trying to make is pause and think about what words we use vs what words are used in common language. I don't really think "boob" and "veejay" are quite on the same level as "pee" and "poop".


I get that, sort of, although I think adults who honestly don't know the words would probably use the more colorful versions. But I think it would make sense to use BOTH words if necessary to communicate,. especially in written content. It's ironic, isn't it?--that at the same time it has been determined that patients should have instantaneous access to their lab results? (Or that they should be experts at "comparison shopping" medical care and health insurance?)


Gods forbid patients have the results of the tests they're paying for when they're readily available online, or make informed decision about their care providers and insurance options.

Whitecoats are control freaks.
Anonymous
Post 09/25/2024 14:03     Subject: Re:health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
Our jury system works very well and in my experience as a criminal trial attorney, it generally draws a random slice of the community with a cross section of life experience. Beyond that, it's the job of the court and lawyers to utilize the voir dire process to weed out biases in jurors. Some jurors will be highly educated


*but most will not be.


Sorry, missed finishing that para before publishing.
Anonymous
Post 09/25/2024 14:02     Subject: health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm positive Dr. House started all this!

I was reading about these Tufts U athletes hospitalized for muscle tissue breakdown. Article had a link for the medical term and I checked it out. Went to Cleveland Clinic which provided info about causes, symptoms, prognosis, etc. And consistently referred to the color of one's pee among the signs of the condition.

WTH is wrong with saying "urine" or "feces" or "bowel movement"? I haven't noticed the word "boob" in such literature but maybe I need to pay more attention. Is "veejay" going to be next when epxlaining pelvic exams???


I'm a medical professional, former trial attorney. When I went to trial advocacy school I was urged repeatedly to take the vocabulary down several notches - I have a graduate degree in literature and read most of Dickens before I ever went to college.

Most jurors are at a 6-8th grade vocabulary level. That's the average patient searching online for medical information as well. Some of these people have some college or even a degree, but that was years ago and just like kids over the summer between grades, people don't retain everything they learned. They naturally regress to a mean of communication that is mirrored by their daily relationships and interactions in the world.

Lots of people don't know the words urine and feces. There is nothing wrong with doctors and medical websites using 'pee' and 'poo' to ensure that knowledge is transmitted effectively.

Get off your high horse, poster.


The US has an 85% high school graduation rate. Sounds like juries are being selected for a specific reason.


I'm not sure what your point is, poster?

Our jury system works very well and in my experience as a criminal trial attorney, it generally draws a random slice of the community with a cross section of life experience. Beyond that, it's the job of the court and lawyers to utilize the voir dire process to weed out biases in jurors. Some jurors will be highly educated

But as far as average education level - yes, we have an 85% high school graduation rate. How many of those people do you think will ever read another book again in their adult life by choice and not because they were required to do so by further education or by an employment requirement?

I recently listened to the podcast "Sold a Story" and was dismayed to learn about the current state of reading education in American public schools. Suffice to say, it is not a good situation.

Here's some random stats from Literacyinc.com:

15% of the United States population has specific reading disorders.
46% of American adults cannot understand the labels on their pharmaceutical prescriptions.
56% of young people claim they read fewer than 10 books a year.
50% of U.S. adults are unable to read an eighth grade level book.
33% of U.S. high school graduates never read a book after high school.
80% of U.S. families have not purchased a book this year.
50% of books started are never read to completion.
70% of adults have not been in a bookstore in the past five years.
15% of U.S. students are dyslexic.


Less than 25% of the US population has completed a bachelor's degree. Less than 15% have completed any advanced degree from MA to MD, JD, PhD.

People who finished high school and then never picked up another book the rest of their adult life except perhaps the holy book at their house of worship are just not very well read and need to have information presented at a middle school level at best. And no, online resources for medical information is not the appropriate place to be attempting to change this reality; the role of the technical writer is to meet the reader where s/he is at and maximize effective communication of essential information.
Anonymous
Post 09/24/2024 20:15     Subject: health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm positive Dr. House started all this!

I was reading about these Tufts U athletes hospitalized for muscle tissue breakdown. Article had a link for the medical term and I checked it out. Went to Cleveland Clinic which provided info about causes, symptoms, prognosis, etc. And consistently referred to the color of one's pee among the signs of the condition.

WTH is wrong with saying "urine" or "feces" or "bowel movement"? I haven't noticed the word "boob" in such literature but maybe I need to pay more attention. Is "veejay" going to be next when epxlaining pelvic exams???


I'm a medical professional, former trial attorney. When I went to trial advocacy school I was urged repeatedly to take the vocabulary down several notches - I have a graduate degree in literature and read most of Dickens before I ever went to college.

Most jurors are at a 6-8th grade vocabulary level. That's the average patient searching online for medical information as well. Some of these people have some college or even a degree, but that was years ago and just like kids over the summer between grades, people don't retain everything they learned. They naturally regress to a mean of communication that is mirrored by their daily relationships and interactions in the world.

Lots of people don't know the words urine and feces. There is nothing wrong with doctors and medical websites using 'pee' and 'poo' to ensure that knowledge is transmitted effectively.

Get off your high horse, poster.


Ok, you've just reminded me that I need to make an appointment so the nice lady can take some photos to see if I have any boo-boos inside my boobies. Maybe she can give me a lollipop at the end.


Lolly. Lollipop is a $0.25 word with three syllables.
Anonymous
Post 09/24/2024 20:12     Subject: health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm positive Dr. House started all this!

I was reading about these Tufts U athletes hospitalized for muscle tissue breakdown. Article had a link for the medical term and I checked it out. Went to Cleveland Clinic which provided info about causes, symptoms, prognosis, etc. And consistently referred to the color of one's pee among the signs of the condition.

WTH is wrong with saying "urine" or "feces" or "bowel movement"? I haven't noticed the word "boob" in such literature but maybe I need to pay more attention. Is "veejay" going to be next when epxlaining pelvic exams???


I'm a medical professional, former trial attorney. When I went to trial advocacy school I was urged repeatedly to take the vocabulary down several notches - I have a graduate degree in literature and read most of Dickens before I ever went to college.

Most jurors are at a 6-8th grade vocabulary level. That's the average patient searching online for medical information as well. Some of these people have some college or even a degree, but that was years ago and just like kids over the summer between grades, people don't retain everything they learned. They naturally regress to a mean of communication that is mirrored by their daily relationships and interactions in the world.

Lots of people don't know the words urine and feces. There is nothing wrong with doctors and medical websites using 'pee' and 'poo' to ensure that knowledge is transmitted effectively.

Get off your high horse, poster.


The US has an 85% high school graduation rate. Sounds like juries are being selected for a specific reason.
Anonymous
Post 09/24/2024 19:44     Subject: health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I used to work as a medical editor and this was an ongoing controversy at my work. There seems like there should be a word in between pooping and evacuation of the bowel but we never settled on it.


What about defecating?

Dp
I like that better than "have a bowel movement" which sounds like you're composing music with all its niceties of "having" rather than doing. Though in practice it really does sound a bit more coarse.
Anonymous
Post 09/24/2024 19:37     Subject: Re:health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
OP here.
I've seen different measures of US literacy averages. People repeat the 5th grade level as the average a lot, but I've seen 6th, 7th, and 8th grade mentioned. There's a particular survey called the NALS which seems more technical, they have numerical score ranges which are not translated into grade levels. WE are definitely not great, but we seem to be better than Italy, Spain, France, Poland, and Austria. (And the first three have the advantage of latin languages with easy grammatical structure and consistent spelling,and I'm sure similar advantages with Polish and German)

The same Cleveland Clinic article other words that are not obviously dumbed down, for example: "When this happens, toxic components of your muscle fibers enter your circulation system and kidneys." I wonder if someone who doesn't know what urine is would know what a circulatory system is or toxic components. It's not as if they are consistent, which contributes to these colloquial words standing out.

But also, shouldn't they be trying to to educate their readers among the public? If you can't teach people that urine is a medical (and legal, for that matter) term for pee, how do you expect them to understand that antibiotics won't kill a virus (they're both "bugs") or how a vaccine can be effective yet you still might catch covid or flu?
Anonymous
Post 09/24/2024 19:12     Subject: health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm positive Dr. House started all this!

I was reading about these Tufts U athletes hospitalized for muscle tissue breakdown. Article had a link for the medical term and I checked it out. Went to Cleveland Clinic which provided info about causes, symptoms, prognosis, etc. And consistently referred to the color of one's pee among the signs of the condition.

WTH is wrong with saying "urine" or "feces" or "bowel movement"? I haven't noticed the word "boob" in such literature but maybe I need to pay more attention. Is "veejay" going to be next when epxlaining pelvic exams???


I'm a medical professional, former trial attorney. When I went to trial advocacy school I was urged repeatedly to take the vocabulary down several notches - I have a graduate degree in literature and read most of Dickens before I ever went to college.

Most jurors are at a 6-8th grade vocabulary level. That's the average patient searching online for medical information as well. Some of these people have some college or even a degree, but that was years ago and just like kids over the summer between grades, people don't retain everything they learned. They naturally regress to a mean of communication that is mirrored by their daily relationships and interactions in the world.

Lots of people don't know the words urine and feces. There is nothing wrong with doctors and medical websites using 'pee' and 'poo' to ensure that knowledge is transmitted effectively.

Get off your high horse, poster.


NP. I absolutely agree. Also, I work in a technical field, but I spend a lot of time interacting with people outside of that field. If I used overly technical language, I'd be shut out of that group. Communication is about being understood.
Anonymous
Post 09/24/2024 19:06     Subject: health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
Anonymous wrote:I used to work as a medical editor and this was an ongoing controversy at my work. There seems like there should be a word in between pooping and evacuation of the bowel but we never settled on it.


What about defecating?
Anonymous
Post 09/24/2024 16:16     Subject: health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm positive Dr. House started all this!

I was reading about these Tufts U athletes hospitalized for muscle tissue breakdown. Article had a link for the medical term and I checked it out. Went to Cleveland Clinic which provided info about causes, symptoms, prognosis, etc. And consistently referred to the color of one's pee among the signs of the condition.

WTH is wrong with saying "urine" or "feces" or "bowel movement"? I haven't noticed the word "boob" in such literature but maybe I need to pay more attention. Is "veejay" going to be next when epxlaining pelvic exams???


I'm a medical professional, former trial attorney. When I went to trial advocacy school I was urged repeatedly to take the vocabulary down several notches - I have a graduate degree in literature and read most of Dickens before I ever went to college.

Most jurors are at a 6-8th grade vocabulary level. That's the average patient searching online for medical information as well. Some of these people have some college or even a degree, but that was years ago and just like kids over the summer between grades, people don't retain everything they learned. They naturally regress to a mean of communication that is mirrored by their daily relationships and interactions in the world.

Lots of people don't know the words urine and feces. There is nothing wrong with doctors and medical websites using 'pee' and 'poo' to ensure that knowledge is transmitted effectively.

Get off your high horse, poster.


Ok, you've just reminded me that I need to make an appointment so the nice lady can take some photos to see if I have any boo-boos inside my boobies. Maybe she can give me a lollipop at the end.


You think you're so clever but you just come off as an a**.
Anonymous
Post 09/24/2024 15:34     Subject: health information and using "pee", "poop", etc
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm positive Dr. House started all this!

I was reading about these Tufts U athletes hospitalized for muscle tissue breakdown. Article had a link for the medical term and I checked it out. Went to Cleveland Clinic which provided info about causes, symptoms, prognosis, etc. And consistently referred to the color of one's pee among the signs of the condition.

WTH is wrong with saying "urine" or "feces" or "bowel movement"? I haven't noticed the word "boob" in such literature but maybe I need to pay more attention. Is "veejay" going to be next when epxlaining pelvic exams???


I'm a medical professional, former trial attorney. When I went to trial advocacy school I was urged repeatedly to take the vocabulary down several notches - I have a graduate degree in literature and read most of Dickens before I ever went to college.

Most jurors are at a 6-8th grade vocabulary level. That's the average patient searching online for medical information as well. Some of these people have some college or even a degree, but that was years ago and just like kids over the summer between grades, people don't retain everything they learned. They naturally regress to a mean of communication that is mirrored by their daily relationships and interactions in the world.

Lots of people don't know the words urine and feces. There is nothing wrong with doctors and medical websites using 'pee' and 'poo' to ensure that knowledge is transmitted effectively.

Get off your high horse, poster.


Ok, you've just reminded me that I need to make an appointment so the nice lady can take some photos to see if I have any boo-boos inside my boobies. Maybe she can give me a lollipop at the end.