Anonymous
09/02/2024 09:19
Subject: Re:High schoolers can’t write
AP Lang and AP Lit are the English classes where students are held to higher standards of writing. Unfortunately they don't come until 11th and 12 th grades.
Anonymous
09/02/2024 09:16
Subject: High schoolers can’t write
This was one on the man reasons I moved my child to Catholic school in 6th grade. After taking the placement test in his new school, he asked, “A verb is a person or place, right?” Gulp. Thankfully the school was used to getting clueless public school transfer kids.
He’s in college now and tutors other students at the writing lab. He tells me how terrible the writing is when students come in. No idea how to construct a paragraph, what a thesis is, etc. Many have never written papers longer than a page or two let alone a research paper. Some can’t even construct a sentence because they still hang onto the idea that a sentence simply has a capital letter at the beginning and punctuation at the end. They don’t know that a sentence requires a subject and a predicate.
He’s in college now and tutors other students at the writing lab. He tells me how terrible the writing is when students come in. No idea how to construct a paragraph, what a thesis is, etc. Many have never written papers longer than a page or two let alone a research paper. Some can’t even construct a sentence because they still hang onto the idea that a sentence simply has a capital letter at the beginning and punctuation at the end. They don’t know that a sentence requires a subject and a predicate.
Anonymous
09/02/2024 09:14
Subject: Re:High schoolers can’t write
Anonymous wrote:Two different problems being discussed here.
1. Grammar and spelling. Assuming no learning disabilities, that can be refined by reading and by holding to standards. Spelling tests don't improve spelling, and neither does "studying" vocabulary if you don't study prefixes, suffixes, infixes, and roots. Having a kid read what they wrote out loud and summarize it, then fix it, also helps, but it has to be done repeatedly over a long time.
2. Argumentative writing, which is essentially what most academic writing is: using evidence to support theses and sub-points. That will not usually be picked up or refined by reading because most kids don't read that kind of writing outside of assignments. But argumentative writing can be taught as a series of formulas on which you improvise and create as you become more fluid at it, hence the 5P essay (which should, however, be a late-elementary into MS thing, not a HS one).
Reading does not convert into writing. Practice does.
I went to private school. Students had a spelling/vocabulary text book that included grammar starting in 1st grade. And we had homework using that book every night. By 6th grade we had a formal grammar textbook and diagrammed sentences.
Additionally, we read literature…not the ridiculous benchmark nonsense. And we had writing assignments everyday.
Plus: they taught us how to memorize, study for tests, and research and draft lengthy reports.
FTR, private school kids aren’t special; anyone can learn if schools actually teach the proper skills.
Anonymous
09/02/2024 09:00
Subject: Re:High schoolers can’t write
Two different problems being discussed here.
1. Grammar and spelling. Assuming no learning disabilities, that can be refined by reading and by holding to standards. Spelling tests don't improve spelling, and neither does "studying" vocabulary if you don't study prefixes, suffixes, infixes, and roots. Having a kid read what they wrote out loud and summarize it, then fix it, also helps, but it has to be done repeatedly over a long time.
2. Argumentative writing, which is essentially what most academic writing is: using evidence to support theses and sub-points. That will not usually be picked up or refined by reading because most kids don't read that kind of writing outside of assignments. But argumentative writing can be taught as a series of formulas on which you improvise and create as you become more fluid at it, hence the 5P essay (which should, however, be a late-elementary into MS thing, not a HS one).
Reading does not convert into writing. Practice does.
1. Grammar and spelling. Assuming no learning disabilities, that can be refined by reading and by holding to standards. Spelling tests don't improve spelling, and neither does "studying" vocabulary if you don't study prefixes, suffixes, infixes, and roots. Having a kid read what they wrote out loud and summarize it, then fix it, also helps, but it has to be done repeatedly over a long time.
2. Argumentative writing, which is essentially what most academic writing is: using evidence to support theses and sub-points. That will not usually be picked up or refined by reading because most kids don't read that kind of writing outside of assignments. But argumentative writing can be taught as a series of formulas on which you improvise and create as you become more fluid at it, hence the 5P essay (which should, however, be a late-elementary into MS thing, not a HS one).
Reading does not convert into writing. Practice does.
Anonymous
09/02/2024 08:55
Subject: High schoolers can’t write
Anonymous wrote:We have a DS in public and DD in private, and the difference in writing instruction is very noticeable. Private emphasizes grammar/sentence structure and has kids writing a lot, whereas there's been next to no instruction and very short writing assignments for DS. They are a grade apart, but if you compare writing samples, you'd guess they are three or more grades apart. You could argue that our DS is just not as good a writer as DD, and his poor writing is not due to a lack of instruction in MCPS, but both kids read a ton, and DS is a straight-A student. When I see what type of work receives an A for DS, it's honestly shocking.
FWIW I don't think this is just an MCPS issue. This is 2024 issue and fewer people are really teaching writing. It's frightening how many people don't understand the seriousness of that and are content to say "oh well, they will just use AI" or something similar.
I’m an English teacher who transitioned to working in a private school. It’s night and day. I have fewer students and more planning time, so I’m able to intentionally focus on writing instruction. My students write, get feedback, and revise frequently. The school prioritizes writing instruction, so English teachers are placed in a position to provide it.
I didn’t receive that support in public, where I had twice as many students and about 30 minutes a day to myself to grade.
No, it is absolutely not fair.
Anonymous
09/02/2024 08:48
Subject: High schoolers can’t write
I am an immigrant, and I learned English from my home country. They taught grammar, structured writing, and local/foreign teachers taught in English at ES/MS/High school. They did not teach phonics. My DH is from here. Would that be beneficial if I tried to teach my ES kids the way I learned English from home country to supplement them on writing and grammar? Like spend 15 mins a day? I think I will first to break down a sentence in different parts & tense. Make it worse or just do it?
My English is not as good as DH. I find out that a lot of popular books that my kids read are not written in a correct grammatical way, including the ones teacher's recommendation. Teachers do not correct grammar and spelling, and kids told me that those are not important......because teachers do not mark them wrong.
My English is not as good as DH. I find out that a lot of popular books that my kids read are not written in a correct grammatical way, including the ones teacher's recommendation. Teachers do not correct grammar and spelling, and kids told me that those are not important......because teachers do not mark them wrong.
Anonymous
09/02/2024 08:43
Subject: High schoolers can’t write
Mcps stopped teaching grammar years ago.
And the reading blocks where teachers cycle through a million groups isn’t effective.
ICYMI: kids at catholic school write well…because the old fashioned way of educating kids (spelling, vocabulary, grammar, reading AND writing) is effective.
#duh
And the reading blocks where teachers cycle through a million groups isn’t effective.
ICYMI: kids at catholic school write well…because the old fashioned way of educating kids (spelling, vocabulary, grammar, reading AND writing) is effective.
#duh
Anonymous
09/02/2024 08:33
Subject: Re:High schoolers can’t write
I am actually impressed with my MCPS daughter’s writing skills. I edit writing of adults, including lawyers, in the working world. My senior writes better than most that I see professionally. I don’t know when her writing became so polished. But it is 100% due to MCPS.
Anonymous
09/02/2024 08:25
Subject: High schoolers can’t write
Anonymous wrote:MCPS does not teach grammar, spelling, and writing skills depending on the teacher. Only a few give feedback and help kids improve. You need to pay attention as a parent and help your kids.
THIS! It starts in ES, where teachers don’t correct grammar and spelling errors. Then, MS Advanced English is a joke because it’s a mashup of kids with zero differentiation.
If MCPS truly cared about Equity and educating Black and Brown students, it would focus on teaching our kids basic skills so that they could succeed in school and in life.
Anonymous
09/02/2024 08:22
Subject: High schoolers can’t write
Anonymous wrote:We have a DS in public and DD in private, and the difference in writing instruction is very noticeable. Private emphasizes grammar/sentence structure and has kids writing a lot, whereas there's been next to no instruction and very short writing assignments for DS. They are a grade apart, but if you compare writing samples, you'd guess they are three or more grades apart. You could argue that our DS is just not as good a writer as DD, and his poor writing is not due to a lack of instruction in MCPS, but both kids read a ton, and DS is a straight-A student. When I see what type of work receives an A for DS, it's honestly shocking.
FWIW I don't think this is just an MCPS issue. This is 2024 issue and fewer people are really teaching writing. It's frightening how many people don't understand the seriousness of that and are content to say "oh well, they will just use AI" or something similar.
This is true in all classes. MCPS just wants to tout it’s numbers and brag about how many kids are making Honor Roll, etc.
Kids get As for subpar work.
Anonymous
09/02/2024 08:19
Subject: Re:High schoolers can’t write
Anonymous wrote:Yeah, I have been shocked at how low the bar has fallen when it comes to quality writing instruction in MCPS.
Agree. We made our kids do writing camps over the summers to get their skills up, but they are still not great writers.
The class sizes are just too big for teachers to give meaningful feedback to each student.
Peer review is only helpful if the ‘peers’ are good writers.
MCPS does not do a good job teaching our kids how to write well.
Anonymous
09/02/2024 08:06
Subject: High schoolers can’t write
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My friends who are high school English teachers and college writing professors have been talking for several years now about the complete decline of basic writing ability they are seeing in students. They say it is abysmal.
Because their elementary and middle school colleagues are NOT TEACHING writing or grammar or vocabulary. And they have the children read sub-par literature.
So that’s why.
I think it also has to do with the abandonment of learning content as an educational goal. If you’re not learning a lot of detail about a subject, what is there to write about? I don’t disagree about the lack of traditional English instruction, but the lack of writing assignments in content-based classes like science and social studies may be the bigger problem. Like I’m not sure how my kid is going to learn to write a competent essay when the assignment is “write a letter about how your friend can make change in the world” vs an essay on Harriet Tubman.
Anonymous
09/02/2024 08:06
Subject: High schoolers can’t write
We have a DS in public and DD in private, and the difference in writing instruction is very noticeable. Private emphasizes grammar/sentence structure and has kids writing a lot, whereas there's been next to no instruction and very short writing assignments for DS. They are a grade apart, but if you compare writing samples, you'd guess they are three or more grades apart. You could argue that our DS is just not as good a writer as DD, and his poor writing is not due to a lack of instruction in MCPS, but both kids read a ton, and DS is a straight-A student. When I see what type of work receives an A for DS, it's honestly shocking.
FWIW I don't think this is just an MCPS issue. This is 2024 issue and fewer people are really teaching writing. It's frightening how many people don't understand the seriousness of that and are content to say "oh well, they will just use AI" or something similar.
FWIW I don't think this is just an MCPS issue. This is 2024 issue and fewer people are really teaching writing. It's frightening how many people don't understand the seriousness of that and are content to say "oh well, they will just use AI" or something similar.
Anonymous
09/02/2024 08:03
Subject: High schoolers can’t write
My kid is in 7th in DCPS, but my impression is that they have largely given up on requiring any sort of meaningful volume of writing assignments. It’s just less practice and less feedback.
Anonymous
09/02/2024 07:49
Subject: High schoolers can’t write
They should just learn how to use chatgpt