Anonymous
08/23/2024 14:09
Subject: Declining estranged mother...next steps
Anonymous wrote:At a minimum, you are obligated to see that she has a stable shelter situation (funds to pay rent, for example, or pay for someone to move her to a home for elders), food (can't make her eat it, but at least it's there). And someone to check on her that is paid, not the neighbors. Even if she shoos them away. You don't have to ever talk to her again, but minimums, at least.
She is not obligated to do anything.
Anonymous
08/23/2024 14:08
Subject: Declining estranged mother...next steps
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So you’re estranged, be estranged. Don’t do anything. But don’t trash her to the neighbors. Tell them you’re not involved and leave it at that. YOU made that bed, now lie in it. Trashing her to the neighbors is just vengeful. Will you want every bad thing you did broadcast when you are ill? We all do bad things. Yes, every one of us.
Sounds like you want to look good to the neighbors without doing any good.
Do you steal money from your children? Do you call your daughter a whore for having a child out of wedlock? Do you call your grandson a bastard? Because if you do, you are just like our mother.
SHE made her bed. She alienated her children, her siblings, her friends. To add insult to the injury, when she retired, no one wanted to throw her a going away party. No one. She worked there for 20+ years and has not made a single friend. Maybe to you we are horrible people. But it took us years to break away from her.
Like I said, if you’re estranged, be estranged. Stay out of her affairs with her neighbors. If they contact you, say we don’t have a relationship and leave it at that. You seem to want vengeance. If she’s such a monster, it’s safer for you to leave her alone. You’re obviously really angry. I didn’t judge your choice to be estranged, but I’ll judge your active punishment. Just leave her alone. You can’t control her. You’re not responsible for her.
I have been responsible for most of the elder care in my large family, and it’s been a panoply of personalities including some abusive ones. There was one that I did not care for because of the level of abuse. But I didn’t sabotage her care either. I just stepped back and said I wasn’t caring for her. She was crazy violent with family and sweet with others. I’m sure her neighbors and friends had some opinions about me, but I don’t really care. They cared for her, she was fine, they were fine. That’s it. I didn’t go on a campaign to deprive her of what she had.
Why are you trying to insinuate that OP is "sabotaging" her care? Where do you see her "actively punishing" her mom?? No where did she ever say that. And she doesnt sound like she wants vengeance, she sounds conflicted and extremely hurt. You should probably try reading the posts you respond to if you're going to bother giving "advice" - this is just admonishment.
Anonymous
08/23/2024 14:05
Subject: Declining estranged mother...next steps
At a minimum, you are obligated to see that she has a stable shelter situation (funds to pay rent, for example, or pay for someone to move her to a home for elders), food (can't make her eat it, but at least it's there). And someone to check on her that is paid, not the neighbors. Even if she shoos them away. You don't have to ever talk to her again, but minimums, at least.
Anonymous
08/23/2024 14:03
Subject: Declining estranged mother...next steps
You stop taking calls from the neighbors. They can call Social Services.
If you are estranged, you have already made your decision. Whether we like your decision, whether we think your decision was evil or wrong, is unimportant.
If you are estranged, you have already made your decision. Whether we like your decision, whether we think your decision was evil or wrong, is unimportant.
Anonymous
08/23/2024 13:55
Subject: Declining estranged mother...next steps
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So you’re estranged, be estranged. Don’t do anything. But don’t trash her to the neighbors. Tell them you’re not involved and leave it at that. YOU made that bed, now lie in it. Trashing her to the neighbors is just vengeful. Will you want every bad thing you did broadcast when you are ill? We all do bad things. Yes, every one of us.
Sounds like you want to look good to the neighbors without doing any good.
Do you steal money from your children? Do you call your daughter a whore for having a child out of wedlock? Do you call your grandson a bastard? Because if you do, you are just like our mother.
SHE made her bed. She alienated her children, her siblings, her friends. To add insult to the injury, when she retired, no one wanted to throw her a going away party. No one. She worked there for 20+ years and has not made a single friend. Maybe to you we are horrible people. But it took us years to break away from her.
Like I said, if you’re estranged, be estranged. Stay out of her affairs with her neighbors. If they contact you, say we don’t have a relationship and leave it at that. You seem to want vengeance. If she’s such a monster, it’s safer for you to leave her alone. You’re obviously really angry. I didn’t judge your choice to be estranged, but I’ll judge your active punishment. Just leave her alone. You can’t control her. You’re not responsible for her.
I have been responsible for most of the elder care in my large family, and it’s been a panoply of personalities including some abusive ones. There was one that I did not care for because of the level of abuse. But I didn’t sabotage her care either. I just stepped back and said I wasn’t caring for her. She was crazy violent with family and sweet with others. I’m sure her neighbors and friends had some opinions about me, but I don’t really care. They cared for her, she was fine, they were fine. That’s it. I didn’t go on a campaign to deprive her of what she had.
Anonymous
08/23/2024 11:39
Subject: Declining estranged mother...next steps
"Thing is, she knows how to "play well" in public. She knows how to pass the competency test so to speak. So to the outsiders who don't interact with her much she is this elderly white lady with some physical ailments. She will you her age, her DOB, where she was born, where she lives. She is lucid. But it's the negativity, it's the hate that she hides so well fromw well-wishers."
04:56 again here. OP, you are confusing personality disorders with competency. Competency isn't just about a person's mental capacity, but also about their PHYSICAL ability to care for themselves.
As I said before, she will probably get to the point where she can no longer physically care for herself. That means getting groceries, bathing, toileting, walking, maintaining household cleanliness, arranging for/getting to health care appointments, etc.
That is undoubtedly when neighbors will probably weigh in.
We once had an elderly neighbor who was single with no children but was pretty self-sufficient and then began a downward spiral.
We started noticing she wasn't outdoors as much, she wasn't caring for her pet/walking it, she had obvious physical problems with her legs, and she began to ask us all for more and more help with daily living requirements.
At that point, we contacted senior services for the County and got them involved. They sent over elder care experts who began regular check-ins, etc. and continued to monitor her until she eventually wound up hospitalized and then passed away in a nursing home.
04:56 again here. OP, you are confusing personality disorders with competency. Competency isn't just about a person's mental capacity, but also about their PHYSICAL ability to care for themselves.
As I said before, she will probably get to the point where she can no longer physically care for herself. That means getting groceries, bathing, toileting, walking, maintaining household cleanliness, arranging for/getting to health care appointments, etc.
That is undoubtedly when neighbors will probably weigh in.
We once had an elderly neighbor who was single with no children but was pretty self-sufficient and then began a downward spiral.
We started noticing she wasn't outdoors as much, she wasn't caring for her pet/walking it, she had obvious physical problems with her legs, and she began to ask us all for more and more help with daily living requirements.
At that point, we contacted senior services for the County and got them involved. They sent over elder care experts who began regular check-ins, etc. and continued to monitor her until she eventually wound up hospitalized and then passed away in a nursing home.
Anonymous
08/22/2024 11:37
Subject: Declining estranged mother...next steps
Anonymous wrote:OP, feel free to ignore the toxic guilt trippers. They have no idea what this situation is like and simply can’t fathom the levels of abuse some parents do to their own children.
Have you done individual therapy? I think this might be helpful for you to sort through these complicated emotions. But ultimately, she is not your responsibility. The neighbours are free to step back if they choose, they are not your responsibility either. I really like 4:56’s reply.
This is also a great example of why people who have children just to have a caretaker in old age are f***ed in the head. You can’t treat your children like sh*t and expect them to fall over themselves to care for you unconditionally.
Funny thing is, she never took care of her own parents! She completely abandoned them and let her siblings do all the heavy lifting. Yet she was very offended they left her almost nothing in their wills. For her to expect us to take care of her is just "rich".
Anonymous
08/22/2024 11:32
Subject: Declining estranged mother...next steps
OP, feel free to ignore the toxic guilt trippers. They have no idea what this situation is like and simply can’t fathom the levels of abuse some parents do to their own children.
Have you done individual therapy? I think this might be helpful for you to sort through these complicated emotions. But ultimately, she is not your responsibility. The neighbours are free to step back if they choose, they are not your responsibility either. I really like 4:56’s reply.
This is also a great example of why people who have children just to have a caretaker in old age are f***ed in the head. You can’t treat your children like sh*t and expect them to fall over themselves to care for you unconditionally.
Have you done individual therapy? I think this might be helpful for you to sort through these complicated emotions. But ultimately, she is not your responsibility. The neighbours are free to step back if they choose, they are not your responsibility either. I really like 4:56’s reply.
This is also a great example of why people who have children just to have a caretaker in old age are f***ed in the head. You can’t treat your children like sh*t and expect them to fall over themselves to care for you unconditionally.
Anonymous
08/22/2024 11:18
Subject: Declining estranged mother...next steps
You sound just like her, "your children will pay you back". She hates our children. What exactly you want me to model? Fake love and affection? Our lesson to the kids should be "Pretend everything is fine and force yourself to love and respect someone". Yes, we loved our father. No question, we would've helped him if he ever needed it. He was a decent human being, who should've divorced her ages ago. We would've totally gone with him. PP, you simply don't know what it's like to grow up with a parent who never wanted you.
Anonymous
08/22/2024 11:12
Subject: Re:Declining estranged mother...next steps
Anonymous wrote:
The neighbors are making a choice to help her. You can politely thank them for their efforts and also remind them that you and your brother do not have a relationship with your mother right now and are not interested in changing that due to her behavior. You would not even know that this was going on if neighbors had not gotten in touch with you. She has a home care agency helping, which is what you would be getting established anyway. Those people will note problems and escalate if necessary. You will probably be contacted at some point as next of kin, but my understanding is that you actually are not obligated to accept that responsibility. You can decline, and the person asking will go down the list.
We are estranged from my husband's mother for similar reasons. It's been about a year and a half since he went no-contact with her. If we were informed that she was declining in health, my response would be, "Thank you for letting me know. As you are aware, we don't have a relationship with Jan anymore due to her abusive behavior, and for this reason, we are not able to help with the situation." It feels awful and cold, but when I think about the reasons we had to cut her out of our lives, it reminds me how I don't want to expose my kids or my amazing husband to his toxic mom, no matter how much empathy I have as a human for another suffering human.
I just hate imposing on other people. The neighbors seem very nice people but they have their own families. I may not like our mother but the thought of her lying there alone is just cruel. Maybe I am getting sentimental with age, but I think our Dad would be so mad at us for not helping her. He was a great guy, we loved him.
This is why. You ARE imposing on the neighbors. And yes, no matter how awful your mom may be---abandoning her IS cruel. Be better than she has been. The fact that you know your current behavior would distress your late father whom you loved is your conscience telling you what to do. But most importantly, your behavior is what you are modelling for your children. You can model setting boundaries AND stepping up to basic human decency. How your children see you treat your mom will be what they carry with them and if they see you abandon her, then the same thing may one day happen to you.
Anonymous
08/22/2024 10:32
Subject: Declining estranged mother...next steps
Anonymous wrote:So you’re estranged, be estranged. Don’t do anything. But don’t trash her to the neighbors. Tell them you’re not involved and leave it at that. YOU made that bed, now lie in it. Trashing her to the neighbors is just vengeful. Will you want every bad thing you did broadcast when you are ill? We all do bad things. Yes, every one of us.
Sounds like you want to look good to the neighbors without doing any good.
Do you steal money from your children? Do you call your daughter a whore for having a child out of wedlock? Do you call your grandson a bastard? Because if you do, you are just like our mother.
SHE made her bed. She alienated her children, her siblings, her friends. To add insult to the injury, when she retired, no one wanted to throw her a going away party. No one. She worked there for 20+ years and has not made a single friend. Maybe to you we are horrible people. But it took us years to break away from her.
Anonymous
08/22/2024 10:26
Subject: Declining estranged mother...next steps
Anonymous wrote:OP, first things first: Unless your mother has been declared legally incompetent she still has the right to do what she wants.
If she chooses not to leave her house, fire her homecare workers, and do without basic life support services, there isn't much you can do.
If all that happens, and the neighbors continue to be watchful, I'm sure they will get the authorities to step in at some point for a wellness check.
The authorities will determine if she is in a condition to live alone or if she needs to be in a facility. The courts will intervene at this point and may declare she needs a legal guardian, who is typically a paid employee of a company that does guardianship services.
I believe when it gets to this point, you and your brother may be contacted to relinquish any rights you have as next of kin, and allow the guardian/court to decide what happens with her. That will include her physical and financial matters.
Thing is, she knows how to "play well" in public. She knows how to pass the competency test so to speak. So to the outsiders who don't interact with her much she is this elderly white lady with some physical ailments. She will you her age, her DOB, where she was born, where she lives. She is lucid. But it's the negativity, it's the hate that she hides so well fromw well-wishers.
Anonymous
08/22/2024 10:23
Subject: Declining estranged mother...next steps
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Well, I would do nothing. She made her bed and now she has to lie in it.
My brother thinks the same but I feel bad that her neighbors are doing anything. I am trying to wrap my head around how can a person who barely leaves the house and was always rather frugal, blows through her savings but oh well. I know she won't let us look at her finances
So what do people w/o families typically do in these situations? Government just steps in?
The neighbors are making a choice to help her. You can politely thank them for their efforts and also remind them that you and your brother do not have a relationship with your mother right now and are not interested in changing that due to her behavior. You would not even know that this was going on if neighbors had not gotten in touch with you. She has a home care agency helping, which is what you would be getting established anyway. Those people will note problems and escalate if necessary. You will probably be contacted at some point as next of kin, but my understanding is that you actually are not obligated to accept that responsibility. You can decline, and the person asking will go down the list.
We are estranged from my husband's mother for similar reasons. It's been about a year and a half since he went no-contact with her. If we were informed that she was declining in health, my response would be, "Thank you for letting me know. As you are aware, we don't have a relationship with Jan anymore due to her abusive behavior, and for this reason, we are not able to help with the situation." It feels awful and cold, but when I think about the reasons we had to cut her out of our lives, it reminds me how I don't want to expose my kids or my amazing husband to his toxic mom, no matter how much empathy I have as a human for another suffering human.
I just hate imposing on other people. The neighbors seem very nice people but they have their own families. I may not like our mother but the thought of her lying there alone is just cruel. Maybe I am getting sentimental with age, but I think our Dad would be so mad at us for not helping her. He was a great guy, we loved him.
Anonymous
08/22/2024 06:26
Subject: Declining estranged mother...next steps
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You need to look at her state government housing for seniors, there should be a website and a number to call. There are probably social workers who can help her apply, but you need to get this started ASAP because there are waiting lists.
No, she doesn't. She does not actually "need" to do any of that. If she needs to maintain a no-contact boundary, that is what she "needs" to do. She is not under an obligation to assume her mother's case management just because the neighbors asked.
True, true. OP doesn't need to lift a finger. However, personally, I would try and do something, for the neighbors' sakes.
Personally, you would do that, okay. What I would do is thank the neighbors for letting me/brother know about the situation, remind them that they don't have a relationship with their mother, and tell him that if they want to continue helping, that is their decision, but that I will not be stepping in to find her housing or medical support. That they are welcome to continue to be supportive, but that I do not want to be involved or contacted about it again.
Boundaries are boundaries. Unless you have been in this position, it's pretty hard to say what you will and won't do. I didn't think that we would get to this point with my husband's mother, but we did, because of HER behavior and refusal to change. The only thing that was changing was that she got meaner and more toxic. It was really hard for him to cut her out of his life. We had to explain to the kids. We had to explain to other family members. It was terrible. But it was also very much the right decision after 45 years of abuse and toxicity.
If she was so “toxic” and “abusive” why was it so “terrible” and “hard” to cut her out?
Not the op, but I can answer. It’s the same reason young children removed from an abusive household yearn to go back. There are so many complex emotions and yearnings and denial. You blame yourself and hold out hope for so long you can make it better until you break.
If this is geniune curiousity, okay -- but it's mean otherwise
Anonymous
08/22/2024 04:56
Subject: Declining estranged mother...next steps
OP, first things first: Unless your mother has been declared legally incompetent she still has the right to do what she wants.
If she chooses not to leave her house, fire her homecare workers, and do without basic life support services, there isn't much you can do.
If all that happens, and the neighbors continue to be watchful, I'm sure they will get the authorities to step in at some point for a wellness check.
The authorities will determine if she is in a condition to live alone or if she needs to be in a facility. The courts will intervene at this point and may declare she needs a legal guardian, who is typically a paid employee of a company that does guardianship services.
I believe when it gets to this point, you and your brother may be contacted to relinquish any rights you have as next of kin, and allow the guardian/court to decide what happens with her. That will include her physical and financial matters.
If she chooses not to leave her house, fire her homecare workers, and do without basic life support services, there isn't much you can do.
If all that happens, and the neighbors continue to be watchful, I'm sure they will get the authorities to step in at some point for a wellness check.
The authorities will determine if she is in a condition to live alone or if she needs to be in a facility. The courts will intervene at this point and may declare she needs a legal guardian, who is typically a paid employee of a company that does guardianship services.
I believe when it gets to this point, you and your brother may be contacted to relinquish any rights you have as next of kin, and allow the guardian/court to decide what happens with her. That will include her physical and financial matters.