Anonymous wrote:I don’t think it’s selfish. At all! I think it’s wise.

+100. Who would want to bring anyone into this world too? You have to be very selfish to do that to a poor child.

It's gaslighting! THE most selfish thing YOU can do is think the world needs more of YOU so YOU reproduce little YOU'S.

Anonymous wrote:I agree that it's not selfish to not want/have kids. It's pretty self aware.
However, it's definitely true that having kids offers opportunities for personal growth that I just don't see happening if you don't have them. Generally, parenting forces people to become less selfish and self-focused.

But it can make people more "my immediate family" focused and less concerned about the needs of the larger community. Not that child-free people are all, or even mostly, concerned about the wider community. There are selfish and unselfish people in both groups.

My DD is 19 and has said since she was little that she doesn't want kids. And that's fine. She wants to spend her life working on environmental restoration so I think she'll be giving more than she's taking in this world. Sure, I'd love it if she changed her mind someday but I think it's unlikely and I would never suggest to her that she should. My other kids want kids so I'll probably get to be a grandmother. But if they don't, that's ok too.

Anonymous wrote:Op, a more broader, philosophical objection is, you're not adding to the universe. You're taking. You're not giving. You're leaving nothing behind. In an environment of overpopulation that could be seen as a good thing by some. However, for those in a fortuitous position, financial able, able to provide, well, highly educated -- it's just a loss to society. A loss to the rest of us. Again, you leave nothing behind.

And on a personal level. More to love. Family lineage is a stronger bond. You aren't providing any value-added.

Again, this depends on what you do. If you were involved in groundbreaking cancer research, or are a single person dedicating your life to Doctors Without Borders, or were the person who advocated long enough to get lead out of gasoline in the US (Caltech geochemist Clair Patterson, https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/getting-lead-out-47935 ), you've probably had a more far-reaching effect on the world than the average parent. You've probably added more to the world, in value.

Of course, that depends on what you do, and it's always a matter of degree. But there are some world changers who had children as well, and there are some who likely credit their ability to focus and dedicate to what they did. It's hard to raise children when you are providing medical care to refugees in starving war-torn countries -- some do, some do not.

But as for a matter of degree, you stated above, "you're not adding to the universe. You're taking. You're not giving. You're leaving nothing behind." That's pretty one note and dogmatic. Don't you think it should be given a little more nuance, or is the only thing that counts warm bodies? Because you can do those in test tubes, you know. Your claim has someone who gives birth and puts the baby in a dumpster as credited with doing more for the world than Leonardo da Vinci, who had no children.

Is that really what you are claiming?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the record I do not think it's selfish to not have kids.

But I think when people say this, they say it from the perspective of having kids and knowing that having kids means putting your kids well-being first. You have to because your kids rely on you for everything and they just need so much. So the experience of parenting is an experience of giving. Sometimes it's the first or most striking experience with having to care for another human being in this way.

So I think people look at their own experience and see the selflessness parenting has required and can include that someone choosing not to be a parent is doing so because they aren't ready to be selfless in that way. I don't think this because I think degree of selflessness good parenting requires comes as a surprise to most people, as does your own willingness to do it because the level of love you feel for your kids also comes as a surprise. You think you know but you don't. People who say childless people are selfish are reasoning backwards but forgetting what it was like to actually not have kids.

If you don't have kids, your daily life is centered around you. How you want to spend your time, on a mundane level and more holistically. That's not selfish but it's just where the focal point is and what makes the most sense. Apart from extenuating circumstances like being a FT caregiver for another family member.

With kids, their needs are leading everything. From meeting infant needs to toddler demands to financial decisions, where you live, etc. Thats very different from being an aunt etc, even a very loving and helpful one.

Depends on what you do with your time, really. A nurse often goes 12 or more hours without urinating on shift, because the needs of patients come first. Sure, she made the choice to commit to them b taking the job, but that's not that dissimilar to committing to being a parent.

Try telling a construction worker putting up drywall that how he spends his time is based on meeting his own needs. Or an Amazon warehouse worker who's being timed by the half minute.

It really depends, you know? And I think a lot of people without children get challenged with "who's going to take care of you in your own age? You'll die alone." It's a selfish justification for having children that comes up **all the time** on this board.

Parents can't walk away from their job as parents, and I think that's what is often overlooked. But that doesn't mean other people always have lives that revolve around meeting their own needs in the moment and holistically. It does mean, however, that if they are choosing to put other people's needs before their own, it is a choice they recommit to each and every day, not something they are committed to because of a decision made long ago, and that they cannot get out of. It's an ongoing choice, when instead they could leave. That seems to be worth a little something, too.

Anonymous wrote:I love kids, my nieces and nephews are some of my favorite humans. But I never got the ‘urge’ to be a parent and found a lot of fulfillment in other areas of my life outside of family.

I’m having a hard time putting into words why I don’t believe it’s selfish. All I can come up with is it isn’t because there’s nothing to be selfish towards? Like..how can I be selfish to something that doesn’t exist?

It’s pretty basic - you are focusing purely on your short term desires.

I adopted my one and only. Best situation!

Anonymous wrote:For the record I do not think it's selfish to not have kids.

But I think when people say this, they say it from the perspective of having kids and knowing that having kids means putting your kids well-being first. You have to because your kids rely on you for everything and they just need so much. So the experience of parenting is an experience of giving. Sometimes it's the first or most striking experience with having to care for another human being in this way.

So I think people look at their own experience and see the selflessness parenting has required and can include that someone choosing not to be a parent is doing so because they aren't ready to be selfless in that way. I don't think this because I think degree of selflessness good parenting requires comes as a surprise to most people, as does your own willingness to do it because the level of love you feel for your kids also comes as a surprise. You think you know but you don't. People who say childless people are selfish are reasoning backwards but forgetting what it was like to actually not have kids.

Ideally but definitely not necessarily true.

I agree that it's not selfish to not want/have kids. It's pretty self aware.
However, it's definitely true that having kids offers opportunities for personal growth that I just don't see happening if you don't have them. Generally, parenting forces people to become less selfish and self-focused.

Who told you it was selfish? Your parent, your family, your friends? They have a personal interest in you having children. That's why they say that.

The rest of us don't mind/care at all. I'm glad when people who don't want children don't have them. Better mental health all around.

Op, a more broader, philosophical objection is, you're not adding to the universe. You're taking. You're not giving. You're leaving nothing behind. In an environment of overpopulation that could be seen as a good thing by some. However, for those in a fortuitous position, financial able, able to provide, well, highly educated -- it's just a loss to society. A loss to the rest of us. Again, you leave nothing behind.

And on a personal level. More to love. Family lineage is a stronger bond. You aren't providing any value-added.

Anonymous wrote:Do people really say that?
I have kids and love being a mom. But it’s the hardest thing and if you aren’t 100% committed then don’t do it! I think it’s more selfish to have a kid and then half ass parenting and not care properly for those kids because you weren’t really into them. I have a parent like this, so…I know how hard that is.

Op, just do your thing, it doesn’t matter what other people think about your life choices. Trust in yourself. You’re not selfish. Just be you.

+1 I own that my choice to have kids was wholly selfish. I adore them and I wanted them; that’s why I had them. You’re not selfish, OP.

Anonymous wrote:For the record I do not think it's selfish to not have kids.

But I think when people say this, they say it from the perspective of having kids and knowing that having kids means putting your kids well-being first. You have to because your kids rely on you for everything and they just need so much. So the experience of parenting is an experience of giving. Sometimes it's the first or most striking experience with having to care for another human being in this way.

So I think people look at their own experience and see the selflessness parenting has required and can include that someone choosing not to be a parent is doing so because they aren't ready to be selfless in that way. I don't think this because I think degree of selflessness good parenting requires comes as a surprise to most people, as does your own willingness to do it because the level of love you feel for your kids also comes as a surprise. You think you know but you don't. People who say childless people are selfish are reasoning backwards but forgetting what it was like to actually not have kids.

If you don't have kids, your daily life is centered around you. How you want to spend your time, on a mundane level and more holistically. That's not selfish but it's just where the focal point is and what makes the most sense. Apart from extenuating circumstances like being a FT caregiver for another family member.

With kids, their needs are leading everything. From meeting infant needs to toddler demands to financial decisions, where you live, etc. Thats very different from being an aunt etc, even a very loving and helpful one.

My SIL is in her late 40s and doesn't have kids. She is also pretty well-off financially and doesn't work much. I don't think she is selfish because of being childfree, as this seems to be the right choice for her and her spouse. I do think she is not very empathetic about the demands that parents have, financially and time-wise, especially in light of the expectations she's laid out for her brother over the years (we are less well-off than she is and we work more and obviously have parenting responsibilities). Maybe the lack of reference or out of touch-ness of being childfree sometimes comes off as selfishness? But that's not it. I liken it to having a SAHM friend who means well but maybe just doesn't understand sometimes that you can't meet for lunch from 12-1 on a Tuesday (because you have to take a call, or you have a meeting until 12:30, or a 12-1 lunch means you're actually OOO from 11:30-1:30, etc...).

People also say it's selfish to have one child. I am an only with an only. Are there pros and cons to any family structure? Absolutely. Is it selfish? I mean, why? I have a great kid who as a teen seems pretty positioned to be a solid contributor to society. Had we not had the bandwidth and resources to shape him in the ways we did, would this be the case? No idea. I also had the leftover bandwidth (because my family comes first) to have and continue a career where I am able to work with and shape disadvantaged college-aged students and gear them for success. Hundreds at this point, probably dozens significantly. I am not really concerned about my legacy or my child's well-being: so why were a bunch of boomers at Target and Great Aunt's at Thanksgiving concerned about it?