Anonymous wrote:OP I am 55 and back in the 1980s in Greenwich CT at one of the top public high schools in the country, it was my own mother who taught me how to structure a 5 para essay, how to balance one idea against another, how to form short and effective sentences.

There is literally no teacher teaching this anywhere in America.

It's one of those things, like reading in Kindergarten. It only happens if the parent is involved.

False

9th grade bcc = english class joke. i think they read one book all year.

OP I am 55 and back in the 1980s in Greenwich CT at one of the top public high schools in the country, it was my own mother who taught me how to structure a 5 para essay, how to balance one idea against another, how to form short and effective sentences.

There is literally no teacher teaching this anywhere in America.

It's one of those things, like reading in Kindergarten. It only happens if the parent is involved.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Same college instructor. PP, it's because I agree with you that I never used the word "creative" in my post. I'm not after real creativity from (many of) my students in (many of) their run-of-the-mill assignments, but reflective competence is something I do want to see. If a given project, argument, problem, or body of evidence really doesn't fit 5-paragraph essay form, a student should have - or be working to develop - the necessary discernment and skill to write the material up in a different way. And no college student should be turning in any paper where the closing paragraph is almost verbally identical to the opening one, but that's what I often see. Either that or I get a (silently hilarious) attempt to explain why their (5-paragraph) essay unites All Grand Theories Of The Cosmos and connects with Every Big Abstract Idea Ever.

Those students are following their professor's examples. Publishes research papers usually end with unsupported conclusions, and a press release of unsubstantiated grand claims.

Not in my field - we don't work that way, and I've never seen conclusions like that in A-level publications. From graduate students, maybe, but we teach them to be more realistic about the consequences of their findings before they finish a dissertation.

Anonymous wrote:My 6th grader has not yet done it in either "Advanced" English or HIGH. They seem to write 1-paragraph "essays."

I teach high school English. Sometimes it is preferable to spend most of the year on thesis statements and paragraphs than to have kids who lack those skills write terrible one page essays. It will only reinforce bad habits. Then we work our way up to lines of reasoning and organization in longer essays. There are kids arriving in high school really unprepared.

Anonymous wrote:Same college instructor. PP, it's because I agree with you that I never used the word "creative" in my post. I'm not after real creativity from (many of) my students in (many of) their run-of-the-mill assignments, but reflective competence is something I do want to see. If a given project, argument, problem, or body of evidence really doesn't fit 5-paragraph essay form, a student should have - or be working to develop - the necessary discernment and skill to write the material up in a different way. And no college student should be turning in any paper where the closing paragraph is almost verbally identical to the opening one, but that's what I often see. Either that or I get a (silently hilarious) attempt to explain why their (5-paragraph) essay unites All Grand Theories Of The Cosmos and connects with Every Big Abstract Idea Ever.

Those students are following their professor's examples. Publishes research papers usually end with unsupported conclusions, and a press release of unsubstantiated grand claims.

Same college instructor. PP, it's because I agree with you that I never used the word "creative" in my post. I'm not after real creativity from (many of) my students in (many of) their run-of-the-mill assignments, but reflective competence is something I do want to see. If a given project, argument, problem, or body of evidence really doesn't fit 5-paragraph essay form, a student should have - or be working to develop - the necessary discernment and skill to write the material up in a different way. And no college student should be turning in any paper where the closing paragraph is almost verbally identical to the opening one, but that's what I often see. Either that or I get a (silently hilarious) attempt to explain why their (5-paragraph) essay unites All Grand Theories Of The Cosmos and connects with Every Big Abstract Idea Ever.

Anonymous wrote:I teach college, and I don't teach freshman English, but we don't explicitly use 5-paragraph form in anything I teach or anything I know about. I can see the influence of this form when I assign very short papers, though - I think the students default to it when it seems to fit the space, and they do mention it from time to time. The problem is that it is so formulaic they don't tend to think when they're doing it. I completely agree that the earlier it can be taught, the better, so that students have plenty of time to learn to expand _away_ from it in HS.

Why do we teach everything now like all kids need to be creative masters of every subject. A 5 paragraph essay teaches kids an easy to understand structure for writing. They learn to develop a thesis statement, provide supporting evidence, and then sum up their conclusions. Who cares if it is formulaic? The vast majority of people do not need to be creative writers (I do writing and research for a living so I do appreciate the importance of being a good writer). Most people need to learn to write clearly, persuasively, and professionally. None of this will involve a lot of creativity. Sorry for this rant. Math is the same f*** way now.

I teach college, and I don't teach freshman English, but we don't explicitly use 5-paragraph form in anything I teach or anything I know about. I can see the influence of this form when I assign very short papers, though - I think the students default to it when it seems to fit the space, and they do mention it from time to time. The problem is that it is so formulaic they don't tend to think when they're doing it. I completely agree that the earlier it can be taught, the better, so that students have plenty of time to learn to expand _away_ from it in HS.

Anonymous wrote:My 6th grader has not yet done it in either "Advanced" English or HIGH. They seem to write 1-paragraph "essays."

Are you sure they just haven’t done the work in class? If not, You should bring this up with both the teachers and the department head. Students are supposed to cover several different writing types per year(ex: Narrative, Argumentative, etc). Not sure how they could be doing that well or even just ‘fine’ in 1-paragraph.

They are supposed to be able to write 5 paragraph essays by the end of 6th grade.

My kid did a National History Day essay that was 1000 words, in 7th, but there were other options. (Poster board display with chunks of text.)

They also wrote stories in English, and reports and mock literature in Social Studies that are longer than 5 paragraphs, but not in essay form.

Common Core Standard discusses structure but not length. It's not really possible to fit this structure I under 3 paragraphs.

Grades 6–8 students:
Text Types and Purposes
1. Write arguments focused on discipline-specific
content.

a. Introduce claim(s) about a topic or issue,
acknowledge and distinguish the claim(s) from
alternate or opposing claims, and organize the
reasons and evidence logically.

b. Support claim(s) with logical reasoning and
relevant, accurate data and evidence that
demonstrate an understanding of the topic or
text, using credible sources.

c. Use words, phrases, and clauses to create
cohesion and clarify the relationships among
claim(s), counterclaims, reasons, and evidence.

d. Establish and maintain a formal style.

e. Provide a concluding statement or section
that follows from and supports the argument
presented.

My 6th grader has not yet done it in either "Advanced" English or HIGH. They seem to write 1-paragraph "essays."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid first has to do this in 4th grade. Why are some kids not being required to until high school??

It’s very teacher specific.

Completely agree that essays are up to the teacher.
I think most MCPS kids do some longer creative writing pieces/stories (4-5 paragraphs) in elementary school.