Anonymous
03/12/2024 17:43
Subject: What’s the problem with MCAP?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It isn’t testing the content being taught. This isn’t hard to understand. If I’m reading a text about the Great Depression, I probably wouldn’t do well on questions about the pre-Civil War era. Poor kids have little background knowledge and when the test asks questions about topics they haven’t been taught, it shouldn’t be a surprise that they don’t do well.
Is thought MCAP is Math, Science, English, not Social Studies
The reading passages can be on any random topic including history, science, etc.
That seems perfectly appropriate.
Anonymous
03/12/2024 17:42
Subject: What’s the problem with MCAP?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:When no school system in the state, not even one, is doing good in the test, it says that the problem is with the test.
The test is flawed.
No it doesn’t. It could very well be that the school systems are not doing a good job of teaching, especially post-pandemic.
The WHOLE state? No...I don't think so.. The test is 100% flawed. It is written by 'eduspeak' people who have little to no experience in current classrooms.
Yes, the whole state. Post-pandemic the state just isn’t doing well.
Anonymous
03/12/2024 16:45
Subject: What’s the problem with MCAP?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Misalignment of MCPS-taught standards to MCAP-tested standards is my understanding. I believe MCPS was trying to adjust, but knew that there would be numbers that appeared lower than expected until they could do so.
Some other MD school districts may have been more nimble in changing to address the MSDE-mandated standards. Pandemic after-effects, though possibly lessening, may also persist.
Isn’t MCAP testing Common Core standards, which is what MCPS is supposed to be teaching? -NP
Yes, it is but MCAP unlike PARCC does a poor job at measuring that because it's an unproven test they made up.
Anonymous
03/12/2024 16:43
Subject: What’s the problem with MCAP?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Misalignment of MCPS-taught standards to MCAP-tested standards is my understanding. I believe MCPS was trying to adjust, but knew that there would be numbers that appeared lower than expected until they could do so.
Some other MD school districts may have been more nimble in changing to address the MSDE-mandated standards. Pandemic after-effects, though possibly lessening, may also persist.
Isn’t MCAP testing Common Core standards, which is what MCPS is supposed to be teaching? -NP
I believe the situation is that both MCPS curriculum and MSDE MCAP inherit standards from common core, but that that does not mean each might have additional standards that do not inherit directly from common core and which, then, might be different. It is incumbent upon MCPS to adopt or develop curricula that adhere to MSDE standards (including anything in addition to common core); MCPS can have additional curriculum requirements of their own. Methodology/approaches to the teaching of common core may also be different between MCPS and that which is envisioned by MSDE, and, then, presentation of MCAP test material might differ from that with which MCPS students are familiar (this is more of a hypothetical on my part, thinking about others' noting that there were confusingly written questions).
My additional recollection from various interactions is that, though there was some advance notice of the MSDE change, MCPS may have been slow to procure/modify curricula to that obligation for a variety of reasons, including:
-- scheduling for procurement of curricula, which MCPS tries to stagger across subject areas, with bottlenecks from numbers of available personnel if everything needed to be done at once,
-- cost of new curricula (we know how the County Council underfunds the MCPS request in the first place; I don't think MSDE provides differential funding to cover their curricular mandates),
-- concern with rapid of changes to curricula while dealing with pandemic effects (responsible curriculum change is a multi-year process), and
-- concern with the timing of curricular change so soon after recent post-C2.0 curricular adoption.
There may be other reasons.
The problem with your analysis is that it is not just MCPS. It's every school system in the state is having problems with the test.
???
Not sure why you use that terminology.
I focused on the issue raised (MCPS; it is an MCPS forum, here). Other counties may have similar difficulties, but I have not looked into other counties' curricular processes.
The one understanding imparted about those was that some, with greater homogeneity, smaller populations and less curricular diversity, may have been more nimble in changing to meet the MSDE standard. That doesn't mean their students scored well.
Not the PP but MCAP is a state test and has nothing to do with MCPS other than MCPS outperforms other counties.
Anonymous
03/12/2024 16:39
Subject: Re:What’s the problem with MCAP?
Are there any other dinosaurs who remember the California Achievement Test (CAT) and/or the Iowa Test of Basic Skills (ITBS). My state (neither CA nor IA) used both (I think they alternated years). They were well respected, everyone knew what to expect, and they weren’t produced by the entities they were measuring.
I’ve lost track of how many standardized tests MD has had since NCLB, but when each state is in charge of developing a test to assess the status of education in that state there are 2 problems:
1. The states don’t have the expertise, money, or the time to really do the task right.
2. They aren’t impartial. They have a vested interest in obtaining favorable results.
I think administering standardized tests to assess the actual level of our students is a good idea. I think MD should therefore stop this endless game of developing “better” tests and go back to tests that reliably assessed the actual level of students for decades.
I’ve lost track of how many standardized tests MD has had since NCLB, but when each state is in charge of developing a test to assess the status of education in that state there are 2 problems:
1. The states don’t have the expertise, money, or the time to really do the task right.
2. They aren’t impartial. They have a vested interest in obtaining favorable results.
I think administering standardized tests to assess the actual level of our students is a good idea. I think MD should therefore stop this endless game of developing “better” tests and go back to tests that reliably assessed the actual level of students for decades.
Anonymous
03/12/2024 16:34
Subject: What’s the problem with MCAP?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It isn’t testing the content being taught. This isn’t hard to understand. If I’m reading a text about the Great Depression, I probably wouldn’t do well on questions about the pre-Civil War era. Poor kids have little background knowledge and when the test asks questions about topics they haven’t been taught, it shouldn’t be a surprise that they don’t do well.
Is thought MCAP is Math, Science, English, not Social Studies
The reading passages can be on any random topic including history, science, etc.
Anonymous
03/12/2024 15:52
Subject: What’s the problem with MCAP?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:When no school system in the state, not even one, is doing good in the test, it says that the problem is with the test.
The test is flawed.
No it doesn’t. It could very well be that the school systems are not doing a good job of teaching, especially post-pandemic.
The WHOLE state? No...I don't think so.. The test is 100% flawed. It is written by 'eduspeak' people who have little to no experience in current classrooms.
Anonymous
03/12/2024 15:37
Subject: What’s the problem with MCAP?
Anonymous wrote:When no school system in the state, not even one, is doing good in the test, it says that the problem is with the test.
The test is flawed.
No it doesn’t. It could very well be that the school systems are not doing a good job of teaching, especially post-pandemic.
Anonymous
03/12/2024 14:13
Subject: What’s the problem with MCAP?
Anonymous wrote:It isn’t testing the content being taught. This isn’t hard to understand. If I’m reading a text about the Great Depression, I probably wouldn’t do well on questions about the pre-Civil War era. Poor kids have little background knowledge and when the test asks questions about topics they haven’t been taught, it shouldn’t be a surprise that they don’t do well.
Is thought MCAP is Math, Science, English, not Social Studies
Anonymous
03/12/2024 14:12
Subject: What’s the problem with MCAP?
The test content is fine. The scoring and evaluation is ridiculous, with the goofy opaque scale.
So the summary reports are meaningless.
So the summary reports are meaningless.
Anonymous
03/12/2024 14:09
Subject: What’s the problem with MCAP?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Misalignment of MCPS-taught standards to MCAP-tested standards is my understanding. I believe MCPS was trying to adjust, but knew that there would be numbers that appeared lower than expected until they could do so.
Some other MD school districts may have been more nimble in changing to address the MSDE-mandated standards. Pandemic after-effects, though possibly lessening, may also persist.
Isn’t MCAP testing Common Core standards, which is what MCPS is supposed to be teaching? -NP
I believe the situation is that both MCPS curriculum and MSDE MCAP inherit standards from common core, but that that does not mean each might have additional standards that do not inherit directly from common core and which, then, might be different. It is incumbent upon MCPS to adopt or develop curricula that adhere to MSDE standards (including anything in addition to common core); MCPS can have additional curriculum requirements of their own. Methodology/approaches to the teaching of common core may also be different between MCPS and that which is envisioned by MSDE, and, then, presentation of MCAP test material might differ from that with which MCPS students are familiar (this is more of a hypothetical on my part, thinking about others' noting that there were confusingly written questions).
My additional recollection from various interactions is that, though there was some advance notice of the MSDE change, MCPS may have been slow to procure/modify curricula to that obligation for a variety of reasons, including:
-- scheduling for procurement of curricula, which MCPS tries to stagger across subject areas, with bottlenecks from numbers of available personnel if everything needed to be done at once,
-- cost of new curricula (we know how the County Council underfunds the MCPS request in the first place; I don't think MSDE provides differential funding to cover their curricular mandates),
-- concern with rapid of changes to curricula while dealing with pandemic effects (responsible curriculum change is a multi-year process), and
-- concern with the timing of curricular change so soon after recent post-C2.0 curricular adoption.
There may be other reasons.
This all actually makes sense. And while definitely issues that need to be resolved would also makes me believe that the MCAP exam itself is not the primary problem. Although there is some question wording that should be reviewed.
Anonymous
03/12/2024 14:06
Subject: What’s the problem with MCAP?
Anonymous wrote:It isn’t testing the content being taught. This isn’t hard to understand. If I’m reading a text about the Great Depression, I probably wouldn’t do well on questions about the pre-Civil War era. Poor kids have little background knowledge and when the test asks questions about topics they haven’t been taught, it shouldn’t be a surprise that they don’t do well.
But that doesn’t automatically make the test (MCAP) the problem. The MCAP is meant to test against the MSDE standards. If what is being taught does align with and meet/exceed those standards then that’s the problem. So the question that remains is what is being taught appropriate?
Anonymous
03/12/2024 14:06
Subject: What’s the problem with MCAP?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Misalignment of MCPS-taught standards to MCAP-tested standards is my understanding. I believe MCPS was trying to adjust, but knew that there would be numbers that appeared lower than expected until they could do so.
Some other MD school districts may have been more nimble in changing to address the MSDE-mandated standards. Pandemic after-effects, though possibly lessening, may also persist.
Isn’t MCAP testing Common Core standards, which is what MCPS is supposed to be teaching? -NP
I believe the situation is that both MCPS curriculum and MSDE MCAP inherit standards from common core, but that that does not mean each might have additional standards that do not inherit directly from common core and which, then, might be different. It is incumbent upon MCPS to adopt or develop curricula that adhere to MSDE standards (including anything in addition to common core); MCPS can have additional curriculum requirements of their own. Methodology/approaches to the teaching of common core may also be different between MCPS and that which is envisioned by MSDE, and, then, presentation of MCAP test material might differ from that with which MCPS students are familiar (this is more of a hypothetical on my part, thinking about others' noting that there were confusingly written questions).
My additional recollection from various interactions is that, though there was some advance notice of the MSDE change, MCPS may have been slow to procure/modify curricula to that obligation for a variety of reasons, including:
-- scheduling for procurement of curricula, which MCPS tries to stagger across subject areas, with bottlenecks from numbers of available personnel if everything needed to be done at once,
-- cost of new curricula (we know how the County Council underfunds the MCPS request in the first place; I don't think MSDE provides differential funding to cover their curricular mandates),
-- concern with rapid of changes to curricula while dealing with pandemic effects (responsible curriculum change is a multi-year process), and
-- concern with the timing of curricular change so soon after recent post-C2.0 curricular adoption.
There may be other reasons.
The problem with your analysis is that it is not just MCPS. It's every school system in the state is having problems with the test.
And what are the challenges they are having with the test?
None of them are doing good in the test.
Anonymous
03/12/2024 14:02
Subject: What’s the problem with MCAP?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Misalignment of MCPS-taught standards to MCAP-tested standards is my understanding. I believe MCPS was trying to adjust, but knew that there would be numbers that appeared lower than expected until they could do so.
Some other MD school districts may have been more nimble in changing to address the MSDE-mandated standards. Pandemic after-effects, though possibly lessening, may also persist.
Isn’t MCAP testing Common Core standards, which is what MCPS is supposed to be teaching? -NP
I believe the situation is that both MCPS curriculum and MSDE MCAP inherit standards from common core, but that that does not mean each might have additional standards that do not inherit directly from common core and which, then, might be different. It is incumbent upon MCPS to adopt or develop curricula that adhere to MSDE standards (including anything in addition to common core); MCPS can have additional curriculum requirements of their own. Methodology/approaches to the teaching of common core may also be different between MCPS and that which is envisioned by MSDE, and, then, presentation of MCAP test material might differ from that with which MCPS students are familiar (this is more of a hypothetical on my part, thinking about others' noting that there were confusingly written questions).
My additional recollection from various interactions is that, though there was some advance notice of the MSDE change, MCPS may have been slow to procure/modify curricula to that obligation for a variety of reasons, including:
-- scheduling for procurement of curricula, which MCPS tries to stagger across subject areas, with bottlenecks from numbers of available personnel if everything needed to be done at once,
-- cost of new curricula (we know how the County Council underfunds the MCPS request in the first place; I don't think MSDE provides differential funding to cover their curricular mandates),
-- concern with rapid of changes to curricula while dealing with pandemic effects (responsible curriculum change is a multi-year process), and
-- concern with the timing of curricular change so soon after recent post-C2.0 curricular adoption.
There may be other reasons.
The problem with your analysis is that it is not just MCPS. It's every school system in the state is having problems with the test.
And what are the challenges they are having with the test?
Anonymous
03/12/2024 14:02
Subject: What’s the problem with MCAP?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Misalignment of MCPS-taught standards to MCAP-tested standards is my understanding. I believe MCPS was trying to adjust, but knew that there would be numbers that appeared lower than expected until they could do so.
Some other MD school districts may have been more nimble in changing to address the MSDE-mandated standards. Pandemic after-effects, though possibly lessening, may also persist.
Isn’t MCAP testing Common Core standards, which is what MCPS is supposed to be teaching? -NP
I believe the situation is that both MCPS curriculum and MSDE MCAP inherit standards from common core, but that that does not mean each might have additional standards that do not inherit directly from common core and which, then, might be different. It is incumbent upon MCPS to adopt or develop curricula that adhere to MSDE standards (including anything in addition to common core); MCPS can have additional curriculum requirements of their own. Methodology/approaches to the teaching of common core may also be different between MCPS and that which is envisioned by MSDE, and, then, presentation of MCAP test material might differ from that with which MCPS students are familiar (this is more of a hypothetical on my part, thinking about others' noting that there were confusingly written questions).
My additional recollection from various interactions is that, though there was some advance notice of the MSDE change, MCPS may have been slow to procure/modify curricula to that obligation for a variety of reasons, including:
-- scheduling for procurement of curricula, which MCPS tries to stagger across subject areas, with bottlenecks from numbers of available personnel if everything needed to be done at once,
-- cost of new curricula (we know how the County Council underfunds the MCPS request in the first place; I don't think MSDE provides differential funding to cover their curricular mandates),
-- concern with rapid of changes to curricula while dealing with pandemic effects (responsible curriculum change is a multi-year process), and
-- concern with the timing of curricular change so soon after recent post-C2.0 curricular adoption.
There may be other reasons.
The problem with your analysis is that it is not just MCPS. It's every school system in the state is having problems with the test.
???
Not sure why you use that terminology.
I focused on the issue raised (MCPS; it is an MCPS forum, here). Other counties may have similar difficulties, but I have not looked into other counties' curricular processes.
The one understanding imparted about those was that some, with greater homogeneity, smaller populations and less curricular diversity, may have been more nimble in changing to meet the MSDE standard. That doesn't mean their students scored well.