Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 11:19     Subject: Question from AP teacher
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I prefer the first option. I don't care as much about the AP exam grade, though it's obv a plus to have a 4/5.

But, what I've found lacking in all APs thus far (and my kid has taken 4) is that the teachers do not do anything to help the kids succeed. And, I'm sorry, with the little HW assigned now, a bit of help on the front end as to how to study effectively would have been helpful. And more availability for questions/help.

My kid has not needed much of these things but I found resources on my own to do what was needed there. And even now, very difficult to find extra help/answer questions from our APUSH teacher and it is frustrating.


I'm surprised that kids taking AP classes need assistance on how to study or take notes. Aren't they supposed to be able to do college level
Work?


Most public schools let students take whatever class they want. They don’t need to show they are prepared for AP level work. It’s all about equity.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 11:07     Subject: Question from AP teacher
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Are you a first year teacher? Why else would you be asking parents to make instructional decisions for you.


+1 from a different AP teacher. Ask other teachers at your school how it works. You're not the first to teach this class.


Why such reaction? I am not a first year teacher. And I have been part of AP teacher community for years, and I have obviously went to AP Summer institutes, and I am obviously aware of how other teachers approach this. But why wouldn’t I want to know what parents think (especially when public attitude to grading and testing is changing so much)? Why would you shame me for that?
There are AP classes in my school where 95% kids have As and only 50% kids pass AP Exam (mostly with 3s) while VA and FCPS pass rates for that subject are around 70%. There are classes where grades are more representative of students actual knowledge but teacher uses crazy grade curve to encourage students to stay in class: most hardworking students get A and most students pass with at least a C. But most C students don’t pass exam, most B students get 2-3, and A students get 3-5 on the exam. Finally, there are AP classes where the class grades are very much predictive of the AP Exam grade, not because teacher distributes grades to match the percentages but simply because the grades are based on what students know or don’t know. Students who don’t get their act together in the first quarter are failing the class (and often chose to drop the class).
I am sorry to say but responses like “good teacher teaches so that all students do well in class and do well on the AP exam” are just neither realistic nor helpful. And I also want to add that the choice the teacher makes here affects all students in class not just the top and bottom students. Again, I myself do not see how giving everyone an A is ok but could argue for either of the other two options . And just wanted to hear parents’ thoughts.


Nobody shamed you, but trying to plan your class and how you instruct/grade to appease parents is not how one teaches, especially in a (theoretically) advanced class that students choose to take. The only teachers I know who think it’s best to ask students and parents what they prefer when running their class are the ones who don’t have a clear instructional plan or much experience.


I don't get the impression the teacher is asking in order to make instructional plans. I suspect they are trying to understand the mindset of a parent body which often places ridiculous demands on teachers.


She asked right in the OP how parents would prefer the class to be graded…
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 11:05     Subject: Question from AP teacher
Anonymous wrote:I am a teacher in a high school in FCPS teaching AP classes taken mostly by seniors but also few juniors (and very rarely sophomores). I want to know parents opinion about this: do you prefer the AP class assessments/grading to be designed so that most students pass the class with a decent grade but only 65-70% or so pass the AP exam OR do you prefer the students’ grades in class and AP grades to be the same for most students (C in class gets at least a 3 on AP exam, B in class gets at least a 4 on AP exam, A in class pretty much a guarantee of a 5 on AP exam). Obviously, in both cases there will be unhappy students/parents. But I want to head opinions and arguments Freon each side. Thanks!!

This is a very interesting question, and the three questions that pop to my mind are:

1) is this a question of how to convert raw scores to letter grades? As in deciding whether 90/80/70 maps to A/B/C or some cutoffs you subjectively choose?
2) is this a question of how to weigh different assessment items? As in deciding whether this difficult quiz is worth 50 or 100 points and the easier project 100 or 200?
3) is this a question of the difficulty of questions to put on a test? As in deciding whether to have difficult questions only 1,2,5, or 10% "get", then slightly less difficult questions which 20% get, etc.?
4) is this a question of how high to set subjective bars students must meet? As in reading an essay (which is never perfect) and then subjectively calibrating your standards to give an A only if it's first-tier publication quality, etc.?

Given that as I understand the AP curriculum is highly regulated what are the primary knobs teachers turn to arrive at the grade distribution they want?
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 10:51     Subject: Question from AP teacher
Anonymous wrote:I prefer the first option. I don't care as much about the AP exam grade, though it's obv a plus to have a 4/5.

But, what I've found lacking in all APs thus far (and my kid has taken 4) is that the teachers do not do anything to help the kids succeed. And, I'm sorry, with the little HW assigned now, a bit of help on the front end as to how to study effectively would have been helpful. And more availability for questions/help.

My kid has not needed much of these things but I found resources on my own to do what was needed there. And even now, very difficult to find extra help/answer questions from our APUSH teacher and it is frustrating.


I'm surprised that kids taking AP classes need assistance on how to study or take notes. Aren't they supposed to be able to do college level
Work?
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 10:49     Subject: Question from AP teacher
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Are you a first year teacher? Why else would you be asking parents to make instructional decisions for you.


+1 from a different AP teacher. Ask other teachers at your school how it works. You're not the first to teach this class.


Why such reaction? I am not a first year teacher. And I have been part of AP teacher community for years, and I have obviously went to AP Summer institutes, and I am obviously aware of how other teachers approach this. But why wouldn’t I want to know what parents think (especially when public attitude to grading and testing is changing so much)? Why would you shame me for that?
There are AP classes in my school where 95% kids have As and only 50% kids pass AP Exam (mostly with 3s) while VA and FCPS pass rates for that subject are around 70%. There are classes where grades are more representative of students actual knowledge but teacher uses crazy grade curve to encourage students to stay in class: most hardworking students get A and most students pass with at least a C. But most C students don’t pass exam, most B students get 2-3, and A students get 3-5 on the exam. Finally, there are AP classes where the class grades are very much predictive of the AP Exam grade, not because teacher distributes grades to match the percentages but simply because the grades are based on what students know or don’t know. Students who don’t get their act together in the first quarter are failing the class (and often chose to drop the class).
I am sorry to say but responses like “good teacher teaches so that all students do well in class and do well on the AP exam” are just neither realistic nor helpful. And I also want to add that the choice the teacher makes here affects all students in class not just the top and bottom students. Again, I myself do not see how giving everyone an A is ok but could argue for either of the other two options . And just wanted to hear parents’ thoughts.


Nobody shamed you, but trying to plan your class and how you instruct/grade to appease parents is not how one teaches, especially in a (theoretically) advanced class that students choose to take. The only teachers I know who think it’s best to ask students and parents what they prefer when running their class are the ones who don’t have a clear instructional plan or much experience.


I don't get the impression the teacher is asking in order to make instructional plans. I suspect they are trying to understand the mindset of a parent body which often places ridiculous demands on teachers.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 10:42     Subject: Question from AP teacher
I prefer the first option. I don't care as much about the AP exam grade, though it's obv a plus to have a 4/5.

But, what I've found lacking in all APs thus far (and my kid has taken 4) is that the teachers do not do anything to help the kids succeed. And, I'm sorry, with the little HW assigned now, a bit of help on the front end as to how to study effectively would have been helpful. And more availability for questions/help.

My kid has not needed much of these things but I found resources on my own to do what was needed there. And even now, very difficult to find extra help/answer questions from our APUSH teacher and it is frustrating.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 10:26     Subject: Question from AP teacher

Ethically, you must teach at the same level of rigor as the exam.

This is so obvious, I'm surprised you're asking. It's not about what the kids want, or the parents want. It's about imparting the content in a way that matches the intentions of the ones who created the curriculum.

Otherwise what on earth is the point?!?

Please be aware that if you are a more lenient grader than the examinators, your students will be unpleasantly surprised when they take the exam.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 10:23     Subject: Question from AP teacher
I grade on the AP curve. In my subject, a 70-ish percent gets a 5 on the exam. Therefore, I curve a 70 to be a 90 on assessments and let the trivial classwork assignments bring it up to a solid A. I haven’t had any complaints from parents (and I’m at a complaining-parents heavy school)

At the end of the day, my exam scores aren’t great because mine isn’t a class that only top tier kids take. (Think bio or environmental science vs chem and physics, or stats vs calculus). The seniors tend not to care and a ton of them end up skipping the exam or not studying at all and finish with 2s when they really could have had 3s with a smidge of effort. That’s on them though. The sophomores and juniors nearly always get 4s and 5s.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 09:44     Subject: Question from AP teacher
Anonymous wrote:Mine had a very hard grader. Got a C in the class, but got a 5 on the AP exam.


That would a foolish teacher, not a hard grader.

I am a teacher and have taught many years of AP and honors classes. It has been my job to help kids do well in my class and in the AP exam.

If the kids are doing well in class but not in the AP exam then the tests and classwork may not be aligned to AP syllabus and test.

The same is true for the reverse misalignment, and can hurt the gpa of juniors and sophomores for no reason.

OP - work with kids to help their grades as much as you can and use a syllabus that fits the exam. Build their confidence for the AP test and future college or community college classes.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 09:43     Subject: Question from AP teacher
Anonymous wrote:It sounds like you are asking if 30-35% of college bound kids should get a D or F, because that’s the percent that fail the AP from you class? No. That’s ridiculous. A D or F takes a bunch of colleges off the table for juniors and can get a senior rescinded.

It depends on the subject and the high school. Physics C at TJ and AP ES at a bottom of the pack school are different things. AP Lang/Lit is core while psychology and HUG are often electives. Those things matter.

Some APs have a 50-60% fail rate some years. But, I would still wonder about a teacher where 30-35% of college bound FCPS at a HS in the top half of the pack are failing. That seems like weak teaching.

If you can get more kids to pass, absolutely do. But not sure why this requires a 4 to be a B vs, say, an A-? Or why kids who can demonstrate mastery but don’t do high pressure testing well should get a C or D when it would be an A or B I’d you pulled “aligns with AP score” out of the mix.



This is interesting, thanks for your input! Can I ask, why wouldn’t we encourage the college bound students who are failing this AP course to rethink their choices? they are failing for one of the following reasons: 1) their are overstretched with too many AP classes and/or after school commitments; or 2) they are not doing assignments and fall behind quickly; or 3) they are trying their best and doing all the work but because the class is just way too difficult/fast for them they really are only getting bits and pieces of curriculum (still learning which is great but often feel overwhelmed b/c can barely keep up). All these kids, if they do care about the grades and learning, would benefit from slowing down, may be taking lower level class this year, taking extra prep classes before trying again next year? Isn’t this a lesson to learn - make sure to not overcommit.

Teachers always try to support all students but there is only so much you can do at a higher level class of 30 students with large range of abilities.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 09:41     Subject: Question from AP teacher
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Are you a first year teacher? Why else would you be asking parents to make instructional decisions for you.


+1 from a different AP teacher. Ask other teachers at your school how it works. You're not the first to teach this class.


Why such reaction? I am not a first year teacher. And I have been part of AP teacher community for years, and I have obviously went to AP Summer institutes, and I am obviously aware of how other teachers approach this. But why wouldn’t I want to know what parents think (especially when public attitude to grading and testing is changing so much)? Why would you shame me for that?
There are AP classes in my school where 95% kids have As and only 50% kids pass AP Exam (mostly with 3s) while VA and FCPS pass rates for that subject are around 70%. There are classes where grades are more representative of students actual knowledge but teacher uses crazy grade curve to encourage students to stay in class: most hardworking students get A and most students pass with at least a C. But most C students don’t pass exam, most B students get 2-3, and A students get 3-5 on the exam. Finally, there are AP classes where the class grades are very much predictive of the AP Exam grade, not because teacher distributes grades to match the percentages but simply because the grades are based on what students know or don’t know. Students who don’t get their act together in the first quarter are failing the class (and often chose to drop the class).
I am sorry to say but responses like “good teacher teaches so that all students do well in class and do well on the AP exam” are just neither realistic nor helpful. And I also want to add that the choice the teacher makes here affects all students in class not just the top and bottom students. Again, I myself do not see how giving everyone an A is ok but could argue for either of the other two options . And just wanted to hear parents’ thoughts.


My kids' school (not FCPS) handles APs like this: The class grading is tough, so few kids have an A at the end of the year. Class grades are retroactively changed based on AP performance, where a score of a 3 doesn't really change your grade, a 2 or 1 pretty significantly decreases your grade, a 4 bumps the final grade up almost a full letter grade, and a 5 more or less guarantees an A. So, last year my kid had a B+ at the end of the year in AP Government, got a 5 on the exam, and now has an A in the class on their transcript.

FCPS would never allow this system, so it's irrelevant for you. It does avoid kids skipping the AP exam, and it helps make the school look less ridiculous when there are kids with As in a class who fail the AP exam. It would also help in cases like the PP, where the kid gets a 5 on the test but only a C in the class, which is flat out absurd.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 09:24     Subject: Question from AP teacher
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Are you a first year teacher? Why else would you be asking parents to make instructional decisions for you.


+1 from a different AP teacher. Ask other teachers at your school how it works. You're not the first to teach this class.


Why such reaction? I am not a first year teacher. And I have been part of AP teacher community for years, and I have obviously went to AP Summer institutes, and I am obviously aware of how other teachers approach this. But why wouldn’t I want to know what parents think (especially when public attitude to grading and testing is changing so much)? Why would you shame me for that?
There are AP classes in my school where 95% kids have As and only 50% kids pass AP Exam (mostly with 3s) while VA and FCPS pass rates for that subject are around 70%. There are classes where grades are more representative of students actual knowledge but teacher uses crazy grade curve to encourage students to stay in class: most hardworking students get A and most students pass with at least a C. But most C students don’t pass exam, most B students get 2-3, and A students get 3-5 on the exam. Finally, there are AP classes where the class grades are very much predictive of the AP Exam grade, not because teacher distributes grades to match the percentages but simply because the grades are based on what students know or don’t know. Students who don’t get their act together in the first quarter are failing the class (and often chose to drop the class).
I am sorry to say but responses like “good teacher teaches so that all students do well in class and do well on the AP exam” are just neither realistic nor helpful. And I also want to add that the choice the teacher makes here affects all students in class not just the top and bottom students. Again, I myself do not see how giving everyone an A is ok but could argue for either of the other two options . And just wanted to hear parents’ thoughts.


Nobody shamed you, but trying to plan your class and how you instruct/grade to appease parents is not how one teaches, especially in a (theoretically) advanced class that students choose to take. The only teachers I know who think it’s best to ask students and parents what they prefer when running their class are the ones who don’t have a clear instructional plan or much experience.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 09:20     Subject: Question from AP teacher
Anonymous wrote:Not everyone takes the AP test at the end. So how would you get their grade?


Not everyone but most kids do take the exam. All teachers have access to their own class exam grades from past years. But we also have access to FCPS produced reports that show how course end grades correlate to AP exam grades. We can filter by school, subject, and even teacher. There is a lot of variation on how this looks, from school to school (for the same course).
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 09:12     Subject: Question from AP teacher
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Are you a first year teacher? Why else would you be asking parents to make instructional decisions for you.


+1 from a different AP teacher. Ask other teachers at your school how it works. You're not the first to teach this class.


Why such reaction? I am not a first year teacher. And I have been part of AP teacher community for years, and I have obviously went to AP Summer institutes, and I am obviously aware of how other teachers approach this. But why wouldn’t I want to know what parents think (especially when public attitude to grading and testing is changing so much)? Why would you shame me for that?
There are AP classes in my school where 95% kids have As and only 50% kids pass AP Exam (mostly with 3s) while VA and FCPS pass rates for that subject are around 70%. There are classes where grades are more representative of students actual knowledge but teacher uses crazy grade curve to encourage students to stay in class: most hardworking students get A and most students pass with at least a C. But most C students don’t pass exam, most B students get 2-3, and A students get 3-5 on the exam. Finally, there are AP classes where the class grades are very much predictive of the AP Exam grade, not because teacher distributes grades to match the percentages but simply because the grades are based on what students know or don’t know. Students who don’t get their act together in the first quarter are failing the class (and often chose to drop the class).
I am sorry to say but responses like “good teacher teaches so that all students do well in class and do well on the AP exam” are just neither realistic nor helpful. And I also want to add that the choice the teacher makes here affects all students in class not just the top and bottom students. Again, I myself do not see how giving everyone an A is ok but could argue for either of the other two options . And just wanted to hear parents’ thoughts.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 09:10     Subject: Question from AP teacher
Not everyone takes the AP test at the end. So how would you get their grade?