Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 17:36     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
Anonymous wrote:Yes, that kind of turnover means the principal sucks. If people retire, that is one thing, or move away, but if too many teachers transfer to another, that’s a huge red flag.

When people are on a performance improvement plan, you can tell, because they have mentors from outside the building coming in all the time.

I’ve seen and been at schools where principals forced people out and it was not fair at all. It’s like the zero in on people for some reason and they have no chance of succeeding. In almost every case, over my many years, it was a principal problem, while teachers who should have been counseled out were left alone. It’s astonishing how much power principals have.


All true. Teachers who are pushed out and teachers who become favorites are only different in terms of who the principal is. The same teacher who used to be a favorite can end up being picked on and pushed out by a new principal. However, I did notice during my years of teaching that when there was no great reason for a teacher to be picked on, they were rarely put on an improvement plan. Those plans usually lead to the teacher improving and staying in place. Plus, they bring an experienced mentor into the building, and this person will know if there is nothing wrong with the teacher. Instead, if the teacher is simply being picked on because the admin doesn't like them for some personal reason, admin will just harass them until they leave. No plan will be offered. They will simply make their lives miserable unofficially. The ones who got put on improvement plans in my school were the ones who really needed them - they were just doing a terrible job, although they seemed to be trying and were otherwise liked by admin.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 17:32     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Either there is something wrong with the principal OR the principal is getting rid of bad teachers.


There’s not been one example in FCPS of a principal terminating 1/3 of its teaching staff. In this case, it’s the principal and/or the school environment


But they didn't say "terminate." Teachers are almost never fired. Principals get them to move on in other ways, ranging from simply telling them to find a school where they fit better to making their lives miserable until they leave on their own.


The PP’s comment was a response to someone else saying there were being let go.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 17:28     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Principals can absolutely recommend non-renewing a teacher’s contract as long as there is appropriate documentation to support the decision. That’s a good thing given the fact that some teachers aren’t effective and/or do something immoral, unprofessional, and/or unlawful. Here is the Board Policy describing Just Cause for dismissal: https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/8KNHE54811F8/$file/R4293.pdf


And that doesn’t happen very often. In my 25 years of teaching, I’ve witnessed 2-3 teachers being put on a performance plan. They either improved or quit. No one was ever fired, it’s too harmful to document being fired on their next application. Every profession has a Just Cause for Dismissal provision in the employment contract. It’s not unique to FCPS.


How, pray tell, would you know if anyone was put on a performance plan? It’s not something that the teacher or the principal would advertise.



Tell me you've never worked in a school without telling me you've never worked in a school.

-A Teacher
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 17:27     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
Anonymous wrote:Principals can absolutely recommend non-renewing a teacher’s contract as long as there is appropriate documentation to support the decision. That’s a good thing given the fact that some teachers aren’t effective and/or do something immoral, unprofessional, and/or unlawful. Here is the Board Policy describing Just Cause for dismissal: https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/8KNHE54811F8/$file/R4293.pdf


Love when someone who isn't a teacher or admin posts a board doc and thinks that tells you how things work in a school. It's really hard to fire a teacher, and the documentation is only a piece of it. The other piece is that principals have bosses too, and those bosses do not want teachers fired. They expect the principal to be able to work with the teacher and get them up to speed. A firing in that case is a failure, and no one wants that. Actual firings are therefore rare, and in my years as a teacher I witnessed only one (the teacher was caught on camera abusing a student).
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 17:24     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Either there is something wrong with the principal OR the principal is getting rid of bad teachers.


There’s not been one example in FCPS of a principal terminating 1/3 of its teaching staff. In this case, it’s the principal and/or the school environment


But they didn't say "terminate." Teachers are almost never fired. Principals get them to move on in other ways, ranging from simply telling them to find a school where they fit better to making their lives miserable until they leave on their own.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 17:21     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
I'm a teacher. It's not necessarily a red flag. It's normal for a new principal to come in and do nothing much the first year (and thus, no transfers), and then in year 2 or 3 to start making big changes. So generally you can expect a mass exodus sometime in the first three years. Some is getting rid of dead weight, and in other cases it's teachers choosing to leave rather than go through the hassle of retraining, or because the new principal is bad and they want out. So it's really too soon to tell. If people keep leaving, that's a red flag.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 14:24     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
Whenever I read these posts, I wonder if there if there are principals that are the right match for their schools, and who meet the expectations of the staff and the community.
Any examples?
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 10:26     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Either there is something wrong with the principal OR the principal is getting rid of bad teachers.


There’s not been one example in FCPS of a principal terminating 1/3 of its teaching staff. In this case, it’s the principal and/or the school environment


I worked at a school where a hard driving principal drove teachers away. Parents loved him, teachers did not.

There's a big difference between a hard driving principal and one who's just an a**h***.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 09:14     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:But, OP said the principal came AFTER teachers started transferring. So clearly it’s more than just school leadership. That could be part, if the principal inherited a toxic mess. The problem can also be the school community. For example really affluent, entitled kids with lawyer parents who love to threaten to sue. I’d normally add or really high ELL/FARMs, but OP is on DCUM amd said not Title I, so probably not that. Or, the principal inherited a toxic atmosphere and it takes to clean up. Or inherits a mess and isn’t up to the task of cleaning it up.

I’m actually a parents and not a teacher. But, I’ve had kids at an elementary school where the parent entitlement made everyone miserable. Teachers were transferring and ended up moving because because obnoxious, entitled students and bullies whose parents though their kids s**t didn’t stink were not the peer group we wants for our kids. 4th grade bullies whose parents insist they can do no wrong become 16 year old who drag race in school zones and kill someone.

There are number of things it could be. But agree it’s a red flag of something.


No? The op clearly says principal came in 2020-2021. “After that” teachers started transferring


Sorry. My misreading. Was scrolling DCUM as I was falling asleep. Yeah, in that case, you probably have a big leadership problem.
Anonymous
Post 02/11/2024 03:10     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
Anonymous wrote:But, OP said the principal came AFTER teachers started transferring. So clearly it’s more than just school leadership. That could be part, if the principal inherited a toxic mess. The problem can also be the school community. For example really affluent, entitled kids with lawyer parents who love to threaten to sue. I’d normally add or really high ELL/FARMs, but OP is on DCUM amd said not Title I, so probably not that. Or, the principal inherited a toxic atmosphere and it takes to clean up. Or inherits a mess and isn’t up to the task of cleaning it up.

I’m actually a parents and not a teacher. But, I’ve had kids at an elementary school where the parent entitlement made everyone miserable. Teachers were transferring and ended up moving because because obnoxious, entitled students and bullies whose parents though their kids s**t didn’t stink were not the peer group we wants for our kids. 4th grade bullies whose parents insist they can do no wrong become 16 year old who drag race in school zones and kill someone.

There are number of things it could be. But agree it’s a red flag of something.


No? The op clearly says principal came in 2020-2021. “After that” teachers started transferring
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2024 23:06     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
But, OP said the principal came AFTER teachers started transferring. So clearly it’s more than just school leadership. That could be part, if the principal inherited a toxic mess. The problem can also be the school community. For example really affluent, entitled kids with lawyer parents who love to threaten to sue. I’d normally add or really high ELL/FARMs, but OP is on DCUM amd said not Title I, so probably not that. Or, the principal inherited a toxic atmosphere and it takes to clean up. Or inherits a mess and isn’t up to the task of cleaning it up.

I’m actually a parents and not a teacher. But, I’ve had kids at an elementary school where the parent entitlement made everyone miserable. Teachers were transferring and ended up moving because because obnoxious, entitled students and bullies whose parents though their kids s**t didn’t stink were not the peer group we wants for our kids. 4th grade bullies whose parents insist they can do no wrong become 16 year old who drag race in school zones and kill someone.

There are number of things it could be. But agree it’s a red flag of something.
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2024 13:35     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Either there is something wrong with the principal OR the principal is getting rid of bad teachers.


There’s not been one example in FCPS of a principal terminating 1/3 of its teaching staff. In this case, it’s the principal and/or the school environment


I worked at a school where a hard driving principal drove teachers away. Parents loved him, teachers did not.
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2024 12:27     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Principals can absolutely recommend non-renewing a teacher’s contract as long as there is appropriate documentation to support the decision. That’s a good thing given the fact that some teachers aren’t effective and/or do something immoral, unprofessional, and/or unlawful. Here is the Board Policy describing Just Cause for dismissal: https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/8KNHE54811F8/$file/R4293.pdf


And that doesn’t happen very often. In my 25 years of teaching, I’ve witnessed 2-3 teachers being put on a performance plan. They either improved or quit. No one was ever fired, it’s too harmful to document being fired on their next application. Every profession has a Just Cause for Dismissal provision in the employment contract. It’s not unique to FCPS.


How, pray tell, would you know if anyone was put on a performance plan? It’s not something that the teacher or the principal would advertise.



No the PP but work in a school....trust me everyone finds out like a bad game of telephone.


We had one teacher announce/complain that their score was however many points shy of "meets." This is a teacher who has so many red flags that multiple staff have documented. But, they are a warm body in a high-need area.
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2024 11:57     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Principals can absolutely recommend non-renewing a teacher’s contract as long as there is appropriate documentation to support the decision. That’s a good thing given the fact that some teachers aren’t effective and/or do something immoral, unprofessional, and/or unlawful. Here is the Board Policy describing Just Cause for dismissal: https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/files/8KNHE54811F8/$file/R4293.pdf


And that doesn’t happen very often. In my 25 years of teaching, I’ve witnessed 2-3 teachers being put on a performance plan. They either improved or quit. No one was ever fired, it’s too harmful to document being fired on their next application. Every profession has a Just Cause for Dismissal provision in the employment contract. It’s not unique to FCPS.


How, pray tell, would you know if anyone was put on a performance plan? It’s not something that the teacher or the principal would advertise.



Uh, we know because they are in our department and we work with them. They start working with an instructional coach and usually the other teachers have to pull extra weight for them because they suck that bad. But the PP is right. They either improve and stay or don’t improve and stay or quit. They don’t actually get fired, no matter how bad they are.


I am a principal. Very, very few teachers actually get fired for poor teaching because they get counseled out by HR to resign. That is a much cleaner process for everyone. When I was an AP, we had a teacher that we moved to “do not reappoint.” He was awful. HR was working with him to resign, and he wasn’t. He wasn’t arguing that the evaluation was wrong. He just wasn’t getting it. This was years ago, but I remember the HR person saying that she had never had a person NOT resign. It was literally the last minute, right before the Board of Ed (who does the actual dismissal) was meeting that he resigned.



I’m the PP you responsed to. We had one of those- took 1.5 years to finally document the whole process to where she was counseled to resign. She also initially balked but eventually did. I believe she was told it was in her interest if she ever wanted to work in this area again as if the district had “do not renew” in her file it would be extremely difficult for her. She was truly the most awful teacher I have ever worked with and the amount of documentation it took to even get to the point they could counsel her to resign for her own good was astounding.
Anonymous
Post 02/10/2024 11:28     Subject: Principal RED Flags---
Anonymous wrote:Yes, that kind of turnover means the principal sucks. If people retire, that is one thing, or move away, but if too many teachers transfer to another, that’s a huge red flag.

When people are on a performance improvement plan, you can tell, because they have mentors from outside the building coming in all the time.

I’ve seen and been at schools where principals forced people out and it was not fair at all. It’s like the zero in on people for some reason and they have no chance of succeeding. In almost every case, over my many years, it was a principal problem, while teachers who should have been counseled out were left alone. It’s astonishing how much power principals have.


AP's too...I've never personally had an issue but I have seen toxic work environments created by admin. My heart breaks for those people teaching is hard enough! No one should have to deal with high school behavior from adults who are supposed to be professionals.