Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:59     Subject: Organic Chemistry
PhD chemist turned patent lawyer here. Orgo is a beast, until you get to Quantum Mechanics….ooof!

I think a lot of it has to do with the type of thinking and visualization that is needed to do well in orgo and thinking it’s memorization instead of problem solving. I’m horrible at memorizing things, so it was awful for me.

I think I’d do much better at orgo (let’s not discuss quantum mechanics) now, knowing that.

When I was in grad school, things started clicking a lot more - and my ability to mentally visualize structures in 3-D really improved when I had to do it in group theory and crystallography.

Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:58     Subject: Organic Chemistry
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?


It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.



Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???


I know Gonzaga offers it.

If you Google the description it says that the course is "a fundamental overview to the topic" and introduces "major themes." It's not at all on the level of a traditional college-level orgo course.


But how great for kids to have that foundation and precursor before getting to college, especially if they love chem.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:56     Subject: Organic Chemistry
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?


It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.



Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???


I know Gonzaga offers it.

If you Google the description it says that the course is "a fundamental overview to the topic" and introduces "major themes." It's not at all on the level of a traditional college-level orgo course.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:56     Subject: Organic Chemistry
Is there a way for kids to prepare for this class???? If their HS doesn't offer it?

Or is there a "Khan Academy" of O-chem that helps?
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:49     Subject: Organic Chemistry
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?


It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.



Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???


I know Gonzaga offers it.


+1
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:47     Subject: Organic Chemistry
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?


It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.



Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???


I know Gonzaga offers it.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:42     Subject: Re:Organic Chemistry
I took it in my 40s as part of a career change. Hardest thing I’ve ever done, but also fascinating. FYI Orgo 1 is not terrible and a piece of cake compared to Orgo 2.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:42     Subject: Organic Chemistry
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?


It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.



Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???

It's an introduction and usually significantly watered down. It's not for college credit or to test out.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:36     Subject: Organic Chemistry
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?


It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.



Wow. Some schools offer O-chem in high school???
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:36     Subject: Organic Chemistry
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Many kids, especially premeds, try to memorize their way through organic chemistry by memorizing every single reaction. That isn't a good strategy as there is too much to memorize. Instead, you need to understand the reactions, why they are happening (the mechanisms), and be able to apply the mechanisms to new situations (i.e., problem solve). Most kids don't understand the reactions well enough to apply that understanding and thus do poorly on tests. You need to study by pushing arrows and doing a million problems.

The kids who do well in organic chemistry tend to be analytical thinkers who are good at strategy (e.g., board games) and willing to keep going until they understand the content.

--organic chemistry PhD


This is exactly right.

What I found is that you cannot use general categories of reactions to figure out what happens when you put X and Y together, because there are too many exceptions, and then you add in various catalysts, and it all goes to pot. Instead, what is required is being really good at stereochemistry, and having the ability to visualize objects in 3-D space. I was terrible at Organic Chem (my worst grade ever, and I have two Masters, one in molecular biology, another in bioinformatics), but had a good friend that was amazing at it. For him, it took no effort; he could visualize what the molecules looked like in 3-D space, how they fold, and what that meant for reactions. I could not, for the life of me. The vast majority of students either lack the ability like me, or have never had to think that way.


This is spot on! I was Bio/Microbio undergrad and Molecular Bio grad. I am not good to spatial/visual 3D stuff. I much prefer algebra to geometry, etc. I do have amazing memorization skills. I relied on the Bell Curve for organic chem. I think I might have been able to pull a low B.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:35     Subject: Re:Organic Chemistry
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have a degree in Chemical Engineering and graduated 3rd in my class from a T20 law school.
I got a D in organic chemistry.

The hard work and humility was great prep Physical Chemistry.

I think PChem was actually harder, but as a junior in college I was more prepared to tackle than my sophomore self taking OChem.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:33     Subject: Organic Chemistry
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Many kids, especially premeds, try to memorize their way through organic chemistry by memorizing every single reaction. That isn't a good strategy as there is too much to memorize. Instead, you need to understand the reactions, why they are happening (the mechanisms), and be able to apply the mechanisms to new situations (i.e., problem solve). Most kids don't understand the reactions well enough to apply that understanding and thus do poorly on tests. You need to study by pushing arrows and doing a million problems.

The kids who do well in organic chemistry tend to be analytical thinkers who are good at strategy (e.g., board games) and willing to keep going until they understand the content.

--organic chemistry PhD


What I found is that you cannot use general categories of reactions to figure out what happens when you put X and Y together, because there are too many exceptions, and then you add in various catalysts, and it all goes to pot. Instead, what is required is being really good at stereochemistry, and having the ability to visualize objects in 3-D space. I was terrible at Organic Chem (my worst grade ever, and I have two Masters, one in molecular biology, another in bioinformatics), but had a good friend that was amazing at it. For him, it took no effort; he could visualize what the molecules looked like in 3-D space, how they fold, and what that meant for reactions. I could not, for the life of me. The vast majority of students either lack the ability like me, or have never had to think that way.

This x infinity (at least back in the pre-internet days).
I've assumed modern era Organic has cool 3D imagery that makes this much easier to comprehend.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:32     Subject: Re:Organic Chemistry
It was tough for me a Biology major and I had a dad with a graduate degree in Organic Chemistry so no sympathy there .

My younger son likes chemistry and his high school is one of the few in the country to offer Organic Chemistry in high school. He plans to take it Senior year of HS.

Traditionally, it used to be the weed out class for pre-med majors. Frankly, Analytical& Physical Chem was harder and college level Physics too.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:32     Subject: Organic Chemistry
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?


Imho O Chem is one of the easiest class if you have a good teacher or supplement with a good tutor. Once you start to get it, its a piece of cake.

You took a watered down course. It's not easy.
Anonymous
Post 02/09/2024 12:30     Subject: Organic Chemistry
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Many kids, especially premeds, try to memorize their way through organic chemistry by memorizing every single reaction. That isn't a good strategy as there is too much to memorize. Instead, you need to understand the reactions, why they are happening (the mechanisms), and be able to apply the mechanisms to new situations (i.e., problem solve). Most kids don't understand the reactions well enough to apply that understanding and thus do poorly on tests. You need to study by pushing arrows and doing a million problems.

The kids who do well in organic chemistry tend to be analytical thinkers who are good at strategy (e.g., board games) and willing to keep going until they understand the content.

--organic chemistry PhD


This is exactly right.

What I found is that you cannot use general categories of reactions to figure out what happens when you put X and Y together, because there are too many exceptions, and then you add in various catalysts, and it all goes to pot. Instead, what is required is being really good at stereochemistry, and having the ability to visualize objects in 3-D space. I was terrible at Organic Chem (my worst grade ever, and I have two Masters, one in molecular biology, another in bioinformatics), but had a good friend that was amazing at it. For him, it took no effort; he could visualize what the molecules looked like in 3-D space, how they fold, and what that meant for reactions. I could not, for the life of me. The vast majority of students either lack the ability like me, or have never had to think that way.

Totally agree. It's an overlapping skillset with visualizing rotating lines about an axis to make a 3D volume in Calc 3. You have to be able to visualize what's happening.