Anonymous
12/05/2023 21:18
Subject: Counting down until kids leave to divorce
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is like a weekly thread. So sad.
It is sad. But not everyone in life gets lucky in marriage.
The problem is thinking it’s luck.
It is luck. Many things can happen in a marriage that one might not be able to forsee. On paper, it looked perfect. In reality, it was hell. Abusers don't show their colors until they think they have you...that is either with marriage or a birth of a child. Stop patting yourself on the back. Many people did everythng right, picked the right partners, and ended up with liars or abusers.
+1. The smug retorts are really over the top. Having a great marriage that you worked hard on doesn’t mean you didn’t also get lucky. Why is this hard for people to accept? You think the people in bad marriages didn’t work hard? The need to crow about your marriage success is remarkably obtuse.
Totally agree. I have come (very painfully) to realize that luck is a major element in marriage. It doesn't even have to be something as dramatic as an abuser waiting to trap you. It can just be the fact that people's personalities do not completely reveal themselves all at once (or even in 1-2 years of dating) and people's personalities change over time. Dating leading to marriage happens during a relatively carefree part of life. You really have no idea how the stressors of middle age will change someone. No amount of therapy, counseling, or "working on it" can eliminate this problem. For some people it pans out, for others it doesn't.
+1
I was in countdown for 6 years. Last 2 years were torture with COVID lockdown and everyone at home. Impossible to fake it around the kids. I’d hated/resented DH for so long at that point. Honeslty don’t not know how I got through each day. DH started out as a great Dad/husband. Helped w/the kids/household chores about 40/60 split. It was hard as we both worked F/T no parents nearby.Things inevitably started to get stressful as the years wore on. Arguments over the plummeting 40/60 split led me to take on more to minimize the fighting about it. Despite this his patience as a parent faded. He felt he had NO time to himself. So I took on even more and eventually in effect became a single parent. The kids noticed. As teens they avoided him b/c he now had a hair trigger. DCs asked me why I stayed married to him, said he basically was like a boarder in our home. They had no memory of when he’d been a good father/spouse.
I stayed b/c DH would have been a horrible EX. We had separated for few months when they were ages 7-11. He insisted on 50/50 b/c he was ‘already doing 50/50’ (i guess that’s ‘Dad Math’?). It was horrible for the kids. They missed all their appts, play dates and ate Pizza, gas station hot dogs or McDonald’s every night when w/him. Had no clean clothes. After about 2 months he acknowledged it was hard and I’d being doing more than he realized. Came back saying he’d change and did for few months, but then we fell back into the routine. He would yell, start a fight, complain and I would pick up more of the responsiblities. I resigned myself to the reality and started the countdown.
When there were 3 days left on the clock my youngest (about to move into college dorm, the one who had REALLY wanted me to leave DH) suddenly asked me if she’d still be able to come ‘home’ to her room/stuff at Thanksgiving break. I decided to add some time to the countdown clock. Spent those 1st few empty nest months doing trips I’d always wanted to do (but DH didn’t want to do). Surprisingly DH became much more pleasant to be around. Now that he had all of his time, and no longer had to compete for my attention, he become more tolerable to be around. So I added more time to the countdown clock. I’m now about 18 months into OT and am still not sure we will stay married but the odds have definitely shifted. Kids leaving is a huge transition for everyone. Unless you are in an abusive situation I recommend waiting to see how the marriage changes during that transition. It also helps to have a plan for what YOU want in your empty nest phase. DH wanted kids, but the reality of having kids was apparently not what he wanted. I still resent him for that. But am now fully focused on my new empty nest life - some of which includes him but much of it does not. The resentment has faded some and I’m seeing glimmers of how he will be a good grandparent one day. I want to be a part of that. He still has work to do but in an empty nest the balance of power has evened out. He’s had to figure out how to buy groceries/cook food/etc. When kids visit or come home for break they get along better with him. Their relationship w/him is imprving which is good for them. They see that I’m happy and know I’m taking it one day at a time and are okay with that.
I am you but at the 8-10 yo stage, similar delinquent husband /father.
I don’t know if we’ll make it. He needs a simple life without kids or responsibilities, for sure.
We have money so it may come down to how self centered he is or if he suddenly wants someone who adores him and can’t see his serious shortcomings. He opted to get married and have kids and failed miserably as a parent and spouse.
I often wonder how many 55+ yos we see out and about who merely survived marriage off the backs of the working mother, who kept everything running and barely herself.
Anonymous
12/05/2023 21:09
Subject: Counting down until kids leave to divorce
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I really wish people realized that its damaging to the kids when you stay unhappily married until the youngest is out of the house. People seem to have this naive idea that staying doesn't mess kids up too.
So true. My parents were married for 52 years - until my mother died suddenly. My mother made my father miserable. By the time my sibling and I were teens we could see it and were telling my dad "If you want to divorce mom, we'll support you." In our early 20's we would even tell him when we'd find a nice woman for him to date. What the hell do you think I was thinking watching my dad come home from work day after day and go over and kiss my mother hello and look like he was doing it out of obligation? What do you think I thought of my mother any time my dad talked about doing something fun (like once a month poker game with my uncle and their friends) and my mother would make comments like "If I let you," and "So you're going to leave me home alone?" as if she couldn't go out and do her own thing. The only time I saw him hold her hand was if they were walking on ice or she was unsteady on her feet. I never saw them hug.
When she died I had no respect for her as a wife. She was an example of what NOT to do, of the relationship dynamic NOT to create in my own marriage. My father, as far as my brother and I know, never ever cheated. We're not even sure he watched porn. He was loyal, and totally miserable.
What made you think he was miserable?
And were their roles & responsibilities on the homefront during the 18 years you were home or visiting thereafter?
Anonymous
12/05/2023 20:59
Subject: Counting down until kids leave to divorce
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is like a weekly thread. So sad.
It is sad. But not everyone in life gets lucky in marriage.
The problem is thinking it’s luck.
It is luck. Many things can happen in a marriage that one might not be able to forsee. On paper, it looked perfect. In reality, it was hell. Abusers don't show their colors until they think they have you...that is either with marriage or a birth of a child. Stop patting yourself on the back. Many people did everythng right, picked the right partners, and ended up with liars or abusers.
+1. The smug retorts are really over the top. Having a great marriage that you worked hard on doesn’t mean you didn’t also get lucky. Why is this hard for people to accept? You think the people in bad marriages didn’t work hard? The need to crow about your marriage success is remarkably obtuse.
+1
One of the strongest, happiest marriages I’ve seen in my sister and BIL. They then had a child with extremely serious medical issues and it just tore them apart. The child passed away and their marriage is irreparable. They stay together for their other child. So stop acting like you are so much better than other people because your marriage is a ‘good’ one. Luck is absolutely a part of the equation.
Anonymous
12/05/2023 20:21
Subject: Counting down until kids leave to divorce
It’s really hard. My kids are in college and I can’t even pull the trigger because I don’t want to ruin their college experience by causing stress of a divorce. Now I’m thinking maybe when they graduate and are in their own. I know in theory my kids would completely understand but they’d still be affected And away at college where I need them to focus on school.
But I truly cannot stand my DH. Just done with him.
But I truly cannot stand my DH. Just done with him.
Anonymous
12/05/2023 20:20
Subject: Counting down until kids leave to divorce
Thanks so much for that long, thoughtful post, PP.
Anonymous
12/05/2023 20:14
Subject: Counting down until kids leave to divorce
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is like a weekly thread. So sad.
It is sad. But not everyone in life gets lucky in marriage.
The problem is thinking it’s luck.
It is luck. Many things can happen in a marriage that one might not be able to forsee. On paper, it looked perfect. In reality, it was hell. Abusers don't show their colors until they think they have you...that is either with marriage or a birth of a child. Stop patting yourself on the back. Many people did everythng right, picked the right partners, and ended up with liars or abusers.
+1. The smug retorts are really over the top. Having a great marriage that you worked hard on doesn’t mean you didn’t also get lucky. Why is this hard for people to accept? You think the people in bad marriages didn’t work hard? The need to crow about your marriage success is remarkably obtuse.
Totally agree. I have come (very painfully) to realize that luck is a major element in marriage. It doesn't even have to be something as dramatic as an abuser waiting to trap you. It can just be the fact that people's personalities do not completely reveal themselves all at once (or even in 1-2 years of dating) and people's personalities change over time. Dating leading to marriage happens during a relatively carefree part of life. You really have no idea how the stressors of middle age will change someone. No amount of therapy, counseling, or "working on it" can eliminate this problem. For some people it pans out, for others it doesn't.
+1
I was in countdown for 6 years. Last 2 years were torture with COVID lockdown and everyone at home. Impossible to fake it around the kids. I’d hated/resented DH for so long at that point. Honeslty don’t not know how I got through each day. DH started out as a great Dad/husband. Helped w/the kids/household chores about 40/60 split. It was hard as we both worked F/T no parents nearby.Things inevitably started to get stressful as the years wore on. Arguments over the plummeting 40/60 split led me to take on more to minimize the fighting about it. Despite this his patience as a parent faded. He felt he had NO time to himself. So I took on even more and eventually in effect became a single parent. The kids noticed. As teens they avoided him b/c he now had a hair trigger. DCs asked me why I stayed married to him, said he basically was like a boarder in our home. They had no memory of when he’d been a good father/spouse.
I stayed b/c DH would have been a horrible EX. We had separated for few months when they were ages 7-11. He insisted on 50/50 b/c he was ‘already doing 50/50’ (i guess that’s ‘Dad Math’?). It was horrible for the kids. They missed all their appts, play dates and ate Pizza, gas station hot dogs or McDonald’s every night when w/him. Had no clean clothes. After about 2 months he acknowledged it was hard and I’d being doing more than he realized. Came back saying he’d change and did for few months, but then we fell back into the routine. He would yell, start a fight, complain and I would pick up more of the responsiblities. I resigned myself to the reality and started the countdown.
When there were 3 days left on the clock my youngest (about to move into college dorm, the one who had REALLY wanted me to leave DH) suddenly asked me if she’d still be able to come ‘home’ to her room/stuff at Thanksgiving break. I decided to add some time to the countdown clock. Spent those 1st few empty nest months doing trips I’d always wanted to do (but DH didn’t want to do). Surprisingly DH became much more pleasant to be around. Now that he had all of his time, and no longer had to compete for my attention, he become more tolerable to be around. So I added more time to the countdown clock. I’m now about 18 months into OT and am still not sure we will stay married but the odds have definitely shifted. Kids leaving is a huge transition for everyone. Unless you are in an abusive situation I recommend waiting to see how the marriage changes during that transition. It also helps to have a plan for what YOU want in your empty nest phase. DH wanted kids, but the reality of having kids was apparently not what he wanted. I still resent him for that. But am now fully focused on my new empty nest life - some of which includes him but much of it does not. The resentment has faded some and I’m seeing glimmers of how he will be a good grandparent one day. I want to be a part of that. He still has work to do but in an empty nest the balance of power has evened out. He’s had to figure out how to buy groceries/cook food/etc. When kids visit or come home for break they get along better with him. Their relationship w/him is imprving which is good for them. They see that I’m happy and know I’m taking it one day at a time and are okay with that.
Anonymous
12/05/2023 12:14
Subject: Counting down until kids leave to divorce
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is like a weekly thread. So sad.
It is sad. But not everyone in life gets lucky in marriage.
The problem is thinking it’s luck.
It is luck. Many things can happen in a marriage that one might not be able to forsee. On paper, it looked perfect. In reality, it was hell. Abusers don't show their colors until they think they have you...that is either with marriage or a birth of a child. Stop patting yourself on the back. Many people did everythng right, picked the right partners, and ended up with liars or abusers.
+1. The smug retorts are really over the top. Having a great marriage that you worked hard on doesn’t mean you didn’t also get lucky. Why is this hard for people to accept? You think the people in bad marriages didn’t work hard? The need to crow about your marriage success is remarkably obtuse.
Totally agree. I have come (very painfully) to realize that luck is a major element in marriage. It doesn't even have to be something as dramatic as an abuser waiting to trap you. It can just be the fact that people's personalities do not completely reveal themselves all at once (or even in 1-2 years of dating) and people's personalities change over time. Dating leading to marriage happens during a relatively carefree part of life. You really have no idea how the stressors of middle age will change someone. No amount of therapy, counseling, or "working on it" can eliminate this problem. For some people it pans out, for others it doesn't.
Anonymous
12/05/2023 09:41
Subject: Counting down until kids leave to divorce
Anonymous wrote:I really wish people realized that its damaging to the kids when you stay unhappily married until the youngest is out of the house. People seem to have this naive idea that staying doesn't mess kids up too.
Honestly, a bunch of us have million dollar + houses, and a lot of money. We have kids, we have commutes that include school and work, we have all these complex financial ties that make leaving difficult. Can you imagine getting divorced and having to get like an apartment and balance all that stuff. I get it. Sometimes you’ve got to leave if you feel you’re being mistreated.
I am tired of being nagged, tired of intimacy issues not met, tired of being under appreciated for doing half the chores and managing a lot of things, but mainly tired of battles for control by a controlling spouse. I feel that most opinions here are women’s voices, but really I feel like men have to suffer more in silence. Marriage can truly seem like a bad thing.
Anonymous
12/05/2023 00:06
Subject: Counting down until kids leave to divorce
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is like a weekly thread. So sad.
It is sad. But not everyone in life gets lucky in marriage.
The problem is thinking it’s luck.
It is luck. Many things can happen in a marriage that one might not be able to forsee. On paper, it looked perfect. In reality, it was hell. Abusers don't show their colors until they think they have you...that is either with marriage or a birth of a child. Stop patting yourself on the back. Many people did everythng right, picked the right partners, and ended up with liars or abusers.
+1. The smug retorts are really over the top. Having a great marriage that you worked hard on doesn’t mean you didn’t also get lucky. Why is this hard for people to accept? You think the people in bad marriages didn’t work hard? The need to crow about your marriage success is remarkably obtuse.
Anonymous
12/04/2023 23:56
Subject: Counting down until kids leave to divorce
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is like a weekly thread. So sad.
It is sad. But not everyone in life gets lucky in marriage.
The problem is thinking it’s luck.
It is luck. Many things can happen in a marriage that one might not be able to forsee. On paper, it looked perfect. In reality, it was hell. Abusers don't show their colors until they think they have you...that is either with marriage or a birth of a child. Stop patting yourself on the back. Many people did everythng right, picked the right partners, and ended up with liars or abusers.
Anonymous
12/04/2023 23:54
Subject: Counting down until kids leave to divorce
We had a roommate marriage. From day one. I am divorced. In some ways it is better, but in many ways it is worse. Coparenting really sucks. Frankly, if I knew how annoying 50/50 custody would be, I would have stayed married. I hate the kids going back and forth more than ignoring him in the house while married.
There was financial and emotional abuse but honesty, most days, I prefer the crappy marriage. It was much easier logistically. I now have to talk to him so much more divorced. I thought I would feel free. I actually feel more trapped. 10 more years of coparenting nonsense.
There was financial and emotional abuse but honesty, most days, I prefer the crappy marriage. It was much easier logistically. I now have to talk to him so much more divorced. I thought I would feel free. I actually feel more trapped. 10 more years of coparenting nonsense.
Anonymous
12/04/2023 23:19
Subject: Re:Counting down until kids leave to divorce
PP. By the way, I don't look at the Countdown App every week. I started the week I decided we were done as a couple. That was when it was at 540 weeks. It took a lot of therapy to get to this point. 50% custody wouldn't bring more joy into my life.
Anonymous
12/04/2023 23:17
Subject: Counting down until kids leave to divorce
Anonymous wrote:What's the point of staying for the kids?
To avoid the custody battle?
Anonymous
12/04/2023 23:12
Subject: Re:Counting down until kids leave to divorce
402 weeks, 3 days, 2 hours, 49 minutes left. I have the Countdown App! Seriously, I'm happy living with my kids in the same house as my ex. He's unhappy but he won't leave. If we were in two separate houses, he'd still be unhappy. The kids at least have one happy parent 100% of the time. They can see his depression and they know it's something he needs to address, but is not able to right now.
Anonymous
12/04/2023 23:11
Subject: Counting down until kids leave to divorce
Anonymous wrote:I really wish people realized that its damaging to the kids when you stay unhappily married until the youngest is out of the house. People seem to have this naive idea that staying doesn't mess kids up too.
So true. My parents were married for 52 years - until my mother died suddenly. My mother made my father miserable. By the time my sibling and I were teens we could see it and were telling my dad "If you want to divorce mom, we'll support you." In our early 20's we would even tell him when we'd find a nice woman for him to date. What the hell do you think I was thinking watching my dad come home from work day after day and go over and kiss my mother hello and look like he was doing it out of obligation? What do you think I thought of my mother any time my dad talked about doing something fun (like once a month poker game with my uncle and their friends) and my mother would make comments like "If I let you," and "So you're going to leave me home alone?" as if she couldn't go out and do her own thing. The only time I saw him hold her hand was if they were walking on ice or she was unsteady on her feet. I never saw them hug.
When she died I had no respect for her as a wife. She was an example of what NOT to do, of the relationship dynamic NOT to create in my own marriage. My father, as far as my brother and I know, never ever cheated. We're not even sure he watched porn. He was loyal, and totally miserable.