Anonymous wrote:Cooper Union is a really interesting example. Taking that tuition money was penny wise and pound foolish.

+1 Was very stupid of them. I am from NYC area and it was like the biggest thrill when someone you knew got into Cooper Union- Harvard times a million.

But yes, I agree, since NYU medical school did this I do not think it's out of the realm of possibility that a rich college does for undergrad as well.

Anonymous wrote:how on earth will they pay for the explosive growth in administrators?

AI

The AVERAGE FA package at Princeton is $62,635 for class of 26. COA is 76. I was just on a tour and they said half of current students pay nothing. Looking at this data, it could be a bit more than half for class of 26 and beyond.

https://admission.princeton.edu/cost-aid

how on earth will they pay for the explosive growth in administrators?

The idea that Princeton could be tuition free is not new. When I was a student in the 2000s we were talking about it. I even had a Econ question on this subject and ultimately, why would they drop tuition when 40% of students are willing to pay full tuition? But yes, Princeton can afford to be free and has been able to for quite some time.

Legacy admission will probably be gone in the next 20 years imo.

Anonymous wrote:In other words, nobody pays anything. It will probably be Princeton. Also, they'll get rid of legacy at same time.

I get that they take in a lot of money in tuition, but they already have half the kids going for nothing. And they don't need the money. And they'll be able to get rid of a pretty large and expensive administrative department.

I think it will start as tuition only and within another few years, 5 or so other colleges will follow.

You can't make up facts to support your ramblings....

Cooper Union is a really interesting example. Taking that tuition money was penny wise and pound foolish.

Cooper Union had this model for 155+ years and then abandoned it because they got a greedy board and university president who wanted to develop the school's real estate and had raided the school's endowment + taken on significant debt.

They are apparently planning on going back to tuition free under a consent decree with the NY AG. Charging tuition was a major violation of the university's charter. The school also has special tax deals with the city and state that are predicated upon being tuition free

Anonymous wrote:I highly doubt Princeton will be getting rid of legacy. The Princeton legacy admits from our school were the most egregious.

Have you looked at their website lately? I agree with OP. The language used and institutional priorities seem very clear. Not a bad thing, but I would bet legacy isn't really used much longer there unless they are related to very large and involved donors. Even then selectively.

I think this will happen quickly, it will be tied to a named donation (ie Langone at NYU), but I think it will be Harvard. There's too much glory in going first to pass it up. Or someone who is top 25 but not top 5 (see below)

Curtis vs Juilliard is a great example. Maybe a bit too IYKYK for this board, but Curtis is more prestigious and much harder to get into and that's because of a decision that was made a long time ago. Does Juilliard suffer? No. Would Curtis have become Curtis if they charged tuition? Who knows.

These schools are thinking about the next 100 years.

I think there's also a chance some lower ranked but still top 25 school does this to catapult themselves to the elite. I've heard a discussion that argued going all-scholarship for tuition and leaving room and board at cost. It's reasonable to take loans that total under 40k for an elite education. And if you're only paying room and board, btw working summers/Pell/work study/RA opportunities and loans, that's possible. It reverts to numbers we had in the 80s and 90s.

Some top schools have also gotten some blowback in giving full COA to international kids (while getting US tax breaks by US tax payers). This could thread that needle.

It's going to be hard for a school that already has moved the direction of need blind for all even international kids to reverse course, but someone could jump in front with a new model: all-scholarship, no FA available for housing or eating. Very transparent.

Princeton has the largest endowment per student so they are the natural choice, but it's unlikely in that they wouldn't have the intention of giving free tuition to rich kids. But 65% are now on financial aid (getting nearly all of the cost covered on average) and that number will creep up.

colleges exploit the NFP tax status - and more and more the status quo is getting called out.

it's a mixture of endowments rising to insane heights coupled with the fact that the progressive types, who have always called this out, are now being joined by the super conservatives who have recently turned on elite colleges (even though they often graduated from one). it's an unlikely but powerful duo.

this article gets to the root of the issue

https://www.culawreview.org/journal/the-college-tax-scam-addressing-university-exploitation-of-the-501c3-tax-status

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In other words, nobody pays anything. It will probably be Princeton. Also, they'll get rid of legacy at same time.

I get that they take in a lot of money in tuition, but they already have half the kids going for nothing. And they don't need the money. And they'll be able to get rid of a pretty large and expensive administrative department.

I think it will start as tuition only and within another few years, 5 or so other colleges will follow.

What about the non-need based kids? Princeton doesn't generate enough money to give out merit aid for all those kids, and they are not about to deplete those endowments.

+1000

Almost 40% are FULL pay. Why would they eliminate that income?

because they have a mission? or they should pretend to have a mission? or they want to get ahead of the US people and US government asking why they get to be a NFP hedge fund with tax advantages with a small college attached that charges 90k a year?

their endowment has grown 12% a year for last 10 years. that's over 4 billion.

most NFPs feel okay drawing down 4% a year. leaves growth. for princeton that would like 1.5billion alone. not counting alumni contributions and the rest. tax advantaged!

paying for all the full pay would be 150 million. It's really not defensible that these schools charge tuition.

Does not matter. As long as there is a long list of students clamoring to attend for full pay (and there is with a single digit acceptance rate), someone will step up and pay. Why would any school not collect tuition? Just because you think it should be free, doesn't mean it will be. They are a business, and the supply is great, so they will charge the 40%+ that are full pay the full amount

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In other words, nobody pays anything. It will probably be Princeton. Also, they'll get rid of legacy at same time.

I get that they take in a lot of money in tuition, but they already have half the kids going for nothing. And they don't need the money. And they'll be able to get rid of a pretty large and expensive administrative department.

I think it will start as tuition only and within another few years, 5 or so other colleges will follow.

What about the non-need based kids? Princeton doesn't generate enough money to give out merit aid for all those kids, and they are not about to deplete those endowments.

We need to have a real conversation about why we allow these universities to hoard tens of billions in endowments if it's not for education. There are people out there who think Princeton doesn't generate enough money to give merit aid to all those kids!!

What do you mean "why we allow"? What makes you think you have the authority to "allow" a private organization to do anything?

Im not PP but I interpreted this as educational organizations getting IRS/state tax breaks on capital gains as non-profits. So in that sense, the federal government is the one who "allows" them the break.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In other words, nobody pays anything. It will probably be Princeton. Also, they'll get rid of legacy at same time.

I get that they take in a lot of money in tuition, but they already have half the kids going for nothing. And they don't need the money. And they'll be able to get rid of a pretty large and expensive administrative department.

I think it will start as tuition only and within another few years, 5 or so other colleges will follow.

What about the non-need based kids? Princeton doesn't generate enough money to give out merit aid for all those kids, and they are not about to deplete those endowments.

We need to have a real conversation about why we allow these universities to hoard tens of billions in endowments if it's not for education. There are people out there who think Princeton doesn't generate enough money to give merit aid to all those kids!!

What do you mean "why we allow"? What makes you think you have the authority to "allow" a private organization to do anything?