Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please, don’t blame your poor teaching on ‘college board made me do it’.

To give a hypothetical example with issues that might come up taking AP Stats early in the 10th grade. When learning about probabilities and distributions, a student that has taken calculus will understand the probability distribution and it cumulative counterpart are related through integration, or the student that took precalculus will understand that going back and forth from z score to probability is just a function and its inverse.

Even if the class is the same, a tenth grader may not understand these subtleties that you don’t seem to have a good grasp of either. If the teacher is not very good, and the class is taught at the ‘conceptual’ level, then the student could be screwed at the AP exam time.

I honestly don't understand why you're yelling at an anonymous AP Statistics teacher about the AP Statistics curriculum. If you want to yell at anybody, go yell at the College Board. But maybe you should first find out what's actually in the AP Statistics curriculum and what's on the AP Statistics test, because it doesn't sound like you know.

Huh, who’s yelling? I’m just giving my perspective on why AP Stats can be challenging when taken in earlier grades, and trust me that I know what’s in the curriculum or on that test. I actually think poor teaching is part of the problem, frankly it’s disappointing an AP teacher doesn’t recognize some fairly obvious points discussed in the tread.

Oyyy. I very much understand that statistics is a practical application of calculus. Trust me, I have taken plenty of classes in both mathematical disciplines.

I am saying that the way the college board frames questions, the content we are instructed to teach, and the materials we are provided with do not ever mention calculus and frankly make things more difficult when students try to solve things using calculus. Inverse functions are taught in algebra 2 and are easily identified by all students.

There is not a separate class called "AP statistics using calculus" and "AP statistics without calculus" the way there is for physics. It is one class, taught without calculus. The child who has taken 2 years of calc will be sitting next to the child coming straight from gen ed algebra 2. It is taught at the basic level to be accessible to all students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please, don’t blame your poor teaching on ‘college board made me do it’.

To give a hypothetical example with issues that might come up taking AP Stats early in the 10th grade. When learning about probabilities and distributions, a student that has taken calculus will understand the probability distribution and it cumulative counterpart are related through integration, or the student that took precalculus will understand that going back and forth from z score to probability is just a function and its inverse.

Even if the class is the same, a tenth grader may not understand these subtleties that you don’t seem to have a good grasp of either. If the teacher is not very good, and the class is taught at the ‘conceptual’ level, then the student could be screwed at the AP exam time.

I honestly don't understand why you're yelling at an anonymous AP Statistics teacher about the AP Statistics curriculum. If you want to yell at anybody, go yell at the College Board. But maybe you should first find out what's actually in the AP Statistics curriculum and what's on the AP Statistics test, because it doesn't sound like you know.

Huh, who’s yelling? I’m just giving my perspective on why AP Stats can be challenging when taken in earlier grades, and trust me that I know what’s in the curriculum or on that test. I actually think poor teaching is part of the problem, frankly it’s disappointing an AP teacher doesn’t recognize some fairly obvious points discussed in the tread.

Anonymous wrote:Statistician here. There's a huge amount of calculus needed for Statistics but that doesn't mean it can't be taught at a basic level without calc.

Years ago the AP Stat exam I took had very little calculus in it, and yes it was an easier test than Calc BC

However I do think whatever course you take should have a practical component - will they teach R, SAS, Stata etc. Otherwise it's not that helpful for Research purposes...just my opinion.

No. Because it's a high school class, for learning about statistics. You do not need skills in stats software to learn about statistics. I don't think there are many high school students who take AP Stats so that they can do research. If there are any, they should take a class at MC.

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-statistics-course-overview.pdf

Statistician here. There's a huge amount of calculus needed for Statistics but that doesn't mean it can't be taught at a basic level without calc.

Years ago the AP Stat exam I took had very little calculus in it, and yes it was an easier test than Calc BC

However I do think whatever course you take should have a practical component - will they teach R, SAS, Stata etc. Otherwise it's not that helpful for Research purposes...just my opinion.

Anonymous wrote:Please, don’t blame your poor teaching on ‘college board made me do it’.

To give a hypothetical example with issues that might come up taking AP Stats early in the 10th grade. When learning about probabilities and distributions, a student that has taken calculus will understand the probability distribution and it cumulative counterpart are related through integration, or the student that took precalculus will understand that going back and forth from z score to probability is just a function and its inverse.

Even if the class is the same, a tenth grader may not understand these subtleties that you don’t seem to have a good grasp of either. If the teacher is not very good, and the class is taught at the ‘conceptual’ level, then the student could be screwed at the AP exam time.

I honestly don't understand why you're yelling at an anonymous AP Statistics teacher about the AP Statistics curriculum. If you want to yell at anybody, go yell at the College Board. But maybe you should first find out what's actually in the AP Statistics curriculum and what's on the AP Statistics test, because it doesn't sound like you know.

Please, don’t blame your poor teaching on ‘college board made me do it’.

To give a hypothetical example with issues that might come up taking AP Stats early in the 10th grade. When learning about probabilities and distributions, a student that has taken calculus will understand the probability distribution and it cumulative counterpart are related through integration, or the student that took precalculus will understand that going back and forth from z score to probability is just a function and its inverse.

Even if the class is the same, a tenth grader may not understand these subtleties that you don’t seem to have a good grasp of either. If the teacher is not very good, and the class is taught at the ‘conceptual’ level, then the student could be screwed at the AP exam time.

I don't think that poster understand how the AP curriculum works. The teacher is not making stuff up on her own. The curriculum is really rigid and dictated by the College Board.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Stats at an IB school.

Yes, AP Stats is frequently taken as an elective before starting the IB sequence (at my school you take IB Analysis 1 followed by IB analysis 2, so keeping those two courses together is ideal). The only prerequisite for the course is algebra 2.

The prior posters have a bit of misinformation in their comments. There is no calculus, it is taught from a purely algebraic/conceptual standpoint, and honestly the kids who have already taken calculus have a tougher time with stats because they want to spit out straight calculations and stats is more logic/interpretation than calculation. It is a very conceptual course. The kids who go back to IB from AP stats tend to write very strong IAs.

The super strong math kids honestly have a hard time with stats because it feels "fluffy" to them. It's a logic course with an undertone of math, but it's not pure calculations.

If you teach Statistics and claim there are no calculus concepts in the class, then that’s really concerning, not being aware of basic things that calculating probabilities from critical z scores involves integration, I’m wondering if you actually have a degree in math, or what your professional background is.

Even your claims that statistics is more logic/interpretation than calculation and that it is a very conceptual course tell me all I need to know about how good of a teacher you are. Sure, your class is conceptual with a sprinkling of plug and chug formulas but that doesn’t mean that’s what statistics is.

My degree is in math and I was a computer programmer before I became a teacher. The AP Statistics curriculum is extremely prescribed, there is no real room for going off into calculus. 90% of the kids who take the class haven't seen calculus, and only about half have even seen precalc. There is no room for calculus in the intro level material.

Sorry that bothers you. Please complain to the college board--I didn't decide what should be taught, I just teach it.

It’s not bothering me that you’re teaching the prescribed recipe that college board wants you to, it’s more that you decide posts are misinformation based on how you are teaching your own class, which from what you say, doesn’t seem too rigorous.

The response to the OP, there is the nuance that the same AP stats class can be taught differently before and after calculus, and often when taken early, like in the 10th grade, there are a lot of shortcuts, simplifications, ‘conceptualization’, and brushing over that can result in a poor score on the AP exam.

It's the same class, whether you take it in 10th grade, 11th grade, or 12th grade.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Stats at an IB school.

Yes, AP Stats is frequently taken as an elective before starting the IB sequence (at my school you take IB Analysis 1 followed by IB analysis 2, so keeping those two courses together is ideal). The only prerequisite for the course is algebra 2.

The prior posters have a bit of misinformation in their comments. There is no calculus, it is taught from a purely algebraic/conceptual standpoint, and honestly the kids who have already taken calculus have a tougher time with stats because they want to spit out straight calculations and stats is more logic/interpretation than calculation. It is a very conceptual course. The kids who go back to IB from AP stats tend to write very strong IAs.

The super strong math kids honestly have a hard time with stats because it feels "fluffy" to them. It's a logic course with an undertone of math, but it's not pure calculations.

If you teach Statistics and claim there are no calculus concepts in the class, then that’s really concerning, not being aware of basic things that calculating probabilities from critical z scores involves integration, I’m wondering if you actually have a degree in math, or what your professional background is.

Even your claims that statistics is more logic/interpretation than calculation and that it is a very conceptual course tell me all I need to know about how good of a teacher you are. Sure, your class is conceptual with a sprinkling of plug and chug formulas but that doesn’t mean that’s what statistics is.

DP. We are talking about statistics the AP class, not statistics the mathematical discipline.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Stats at an IB school.

Yes, AP Stats is frequently taken as an elective before starting the IB sequence (at my school you take IB Analysis 1 followed by IB analysis 2, so keeping those two courses together is ideal). The only prerequisite for the course is algebra 2.

The prior posters have a bit of misinformation in their comments. There is no calculus, it is taught from a purely algebraic/conceptual standpoint, and honestly the kids who have already taken calculus have a tougher time with stats because they want to spit out straight calculations and stats is more logic/interpretation than calculation. It is a very conceptual course. The kids who go back to IB from AP stats tend to write very strong IAs.

The super strong math kids honestly have a hard time with stats because it feels "fluffy" to them. It's a logic course with an undertone of math, but it's not pure calculations.

If you teach Statistics and claim there are no calculus concepts in the class, then that’s really concerning, not being aware of basic things that calculating probabilities from critical z scores involves integration, I’m wondering if you actually have a degree in math, or what your professional background is.

Even your claims that statistics is more logic/interpretation than calculation and that it is a very conceptual course tell me all I need to know about how good of a teacher you are. Sure, your class is conceptual with a sprinkling of plug and chug formulas but that doesn’t mean that’s what statistics is.

My degree is in math and I was a computer programmer before I became a teacher. The AP Statistics curriculum is extremely prescribed, there is no real room for going off into calculus. 90% of the kids who take the class haven't seen calculus, and only about half have even seen precalc. There is no room for calculus in the intro level material.

Sorry that bothers you. Please complain to the college board--I didn't decide what should be taught, I just teach it.

It’s not bothering me that you’re teaching the prescribed recipe that college board wants you to, it’s more that you decide posts are misinformation based on how you are teaching your own class, which from what you say, doesn’t seem too rigorous.

The response to the OP, there is the nuance that the same AP stats class can be taught differently before and after calculus, and often when taken early, like in the 10th grade, there are a lot of shortcuts, simplifications, ‘conceptualization’, and brushing over that can result in a poor score on the AP exam.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Stats at an IB school.

Yes, AP Stats is frequently taken as an elective before starting the IB sequence (at my school you take IB Analysis 1 followed by IB analysis 2, so keeping those two courses together is ideal). The only prerequisite for the course is algebra 2.

The prior posters have a bit of misinformation in their comments. There is no calculus, it is taught from a purely algebraic/conceptual standpoint, and honestly the kids who have already taken calculus have a tougher time with stats because they want to spit out straight calculations and stats is more logic/interpretation than calculation. It is a very conceptual course. The kids who go back to IB from AP stats tend to write very strong IAs.

The super strong math kids honestly have a hard time with stats because it feels "fluffy" to them. It's a logic course with an undertone of math, but it's not pure calculations.

If you teach Statistics and claim there are no calculus concepts in the class, then that’s really concerning, not being aware of basic things that calculating probabilities from critical z scores involves integration, I’m wondering if you actually have a degree in math, or what your professional background is.

Even your claims that statistics is more logic/interpretation than calculation and that it is a very conceptual course tell me all I need to know about how good of a teacher you are. Sure, your class is conceptual with a sprinkling of plug and chug formulas but that doesn’t mean that’s what statistics is.

My degree is in math and I was a computer programmer before I became a teacher. The AP Statistics curriculum is extremely prescribed, there is no real room for going off into calculus. 90% of the kids who take the class haven't seen calculus, and only about half have even seen precalc. There is no room for calculus in the intro level material.

Sorry that bothers you. Please complain to the college board--I didn't decide what should be taught, I just teach it.

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Stats at an IB school.

Yes, AP Stats is frequently taken as an elective before starting the IB sequence (at my school you take IB Analysis 1 followed by IB analysis 2, so keeping those two courses together is ideal). The only prerequisite for the course is algebra 2.

The prior posters have a bit of misinformation in their comments. There is no calculus, it is taught from a purely algebraic/conceptual standpoint, and honestly the kids who have already taken calculus have a tougher time with stats because they want to spit out straight calculations and stats is more logic/interpretation than calculation. It is a very conceptual course. The kids who go back to IB from AP stats tend to write very strong IAs.

The super strong math kids honestly have a hard time with stats because it feels "fluffy" to them. It's a logic course with an undertone of math, but it's not pure calculations.

If you teach Statistics and claim there are no calculus concepts in the class, then that’s really concerning, not being aware of basic things that calculating probabilities from critical z scores involves integration, I’m wondering if you actually have a degree in math, or what your professional background is.

Even your claims that statistics is more logic/interpretation than calculation and that it is a very conceptual course tell me all I need to know about how good of a teacher you are. Sure, your class is conceptual with a sprinkling of plug and chug formulas but that doesn’t mean that’s what statistics is.

I teach AP Stats at an IB school.

Yes, AP Stats is frequently taken as an elective before starting the IB sequence (at my school you take IB Analysis 1 followed by IB analysis 2, so keeping those two courses together is ideal). The only prerequisite for the course is algebra 2.

The prior posters have a bit of misinformation in their comments. There is no calculus, it is taught from a purely algebraic/conceptual standpoint, and honestly the kids who have already taken calculus have a tougher time with stats because they want to spit out straight calculations and stats is more logic/interpretation than calculation. It is a very conceptual course. The kids who go back to IB from AP stats tend to write very strong IAs.

The super strong math kids honestly have a hard time with stats because it feels "fluffy" to them. It's a logic course with an undertone of math, but it's not pure calculations.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can a student take ap stats first, then Ap calculus the following year. Is that doable?

Yes, my kid took Precalc and AP Statistics in 10th grade, then AP Calculus BC in 11th grade. However, then you're basically locked in to multivariable calculus for 12th grade.

You do not need calculus for statistics.

You do need calculus in statistics for any cumulative distribution function, or continuous probability etc. which is why it’s better to take it with or after calculus. However, the calculus concepts can be explained at a basic level, eg as a limit for summation of discrete probabilities. All the calculations are found in tables or with the help of a graphing calculator, so you won’t do calculus questions by hand. In this respect, for learning statistics at a more superficial level (which is perfectly fine for an introductory class), you do not need calculus.

To OPs question, it is fine to take AP stats in 10th, but don’t underestimate the subtlety and difficulty of the class, I’ve seen many ‘strong’ students getting burned. Also taking it that early means a lot of the concepts are difficult to derive and many results will be taken as given, ie have a formula that needs to be applied. The risk is the student memorizes the formula, but doesn’t really understand the assumptions and context on when to apply, and he might have difficulty on the AP exam, where the questions are actually hard.

When people say Stats is easy, they usually mean the part of plugging in a formula, and of course it’s easy enough to get the standard deviation of a dataset, but in my view this is a very small part of what statistics is about.

Anonymous wrote:Op here. My student is taking precalc, on track to AP calc BC， and IB HL. Just thought having statistics early can help with some research projects later.

I'm not sure why you are asking this question. The progression your child is on is highly unusual. Obviously a child who is that good at math can take AP stats concurrent with AP Calc.