Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing like hate for foreigners to bring people together in politics.

I was surrounded in Rotterdam by a group of youths and almost got robbed. It was the same sort of folks who lived in the Bans Lieu in France. Basically, I’m sorry it’s not woke or politically correct to admit it, but the majority of problems are attributed to culture clash between migrants who are angry and refuse to assimilate. Even like 3rd generation. This isn’t “deprived youths in the poor areas” as the main pooblem. It’s simply a refusal or a disdain to adopt the liberal views of their host country. I get why Geert won. I’m sorry it’s so hard for people to just say it plainly. People need to fcking assimilate or stop migrating to western countries from places with backwards values.

+100
Why would any western country want to import the "values" of a 3rd world country? I completely understand why Geert won. People are sick and tired of seeing their countries trashed by people who hate them and their culture. Which begs the question, why migrate to countries you hold in such contempt?

The benefits. And, if more like-minded people come there too, then more power.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing like hate for foreigners to bring people together in politics.

I was surrounded in Rotterdam by a group of youths and almost got robbed. It was the same sort of folks who lived in the Bans Lieu in France. Basically, I’m sorry it’s not woke or politically correct to admit it, but the majority of problems are attributed to culture clash between migrants who are angry and refuse to assimilate. Even like 3rd generation. This isn’t “deprived youths in the poor areas” as the main pooblem. It’s simply a refusal or a disdain to adopt the liberal views of their host country. I get why Geert won. I’m sorry it’s so hard for people to just say it plainly. People need to fcking assimilate or stop migrating to western countries from places with backwards values.

+100
Why would any western country want to import the "values" of a 3rd world country? I completely understand why Geert won. People are sick and tired of seeing their countries trashed by people who hate them and their culture. Which begs the question, why migrate to countries you hold in such contempt?

Anonymous wrote:Nothing like hate for foreigners to bring people together in politics.

I was surrounded in Rotterdam by a group of youths and almost got robbed. It was the same sort of folks who lived in the Bans Lieu in France. Basically, I’m sorry it’s not woke or politically correct to admit it, but the majority of problems are attributed to culture clash between migrants who are angry and refuse to assimilate. Even like 3rd generation. This isn’t “deprived youths in the poor areas” as the main pooblem. It’s simply a refusal or a disdain to adopt the liberal views of their host country. I get why Geert won. I’m sorry it’s so hard for people to just say it plainly. People need to fcking assimilate or stop migrating to western countries from places with backwards values.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Step one complete. Step two leave the EU.

So they can enjoy the same sharp declines in economic and labor opportunities as well as sharp ris s in consumer products as Great Britain did following Brexit? Ask the British farmers how they feel about Brexit now …

There's no significant move in the Netherlands to depart the EU. Holland is very pro-EU.

The issues that got Geert Wilders his votes have been simmering for a long time. Immigration. And it's not so much the Turks and the Moroccans. Or much less Indonesians. Those are long established communities in Holland. It's the newer arrivals from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and sub-Sahara Africa. These folks have no inclination of assimilating or starting a new life. Their views on many things, particularly women and LGBTQ, are not remotely the same as Europeans. They seem very content to live as parasites on the system and far too often they're violent. Holland is not America. People don't keep their head on a swivel. So it's always a shock.

But it's more than that. It's rental and housing prices. It's resentment over the really severe Covid restrictions the government imposed. There's a general feeling that the more leftist parties don't actually care about the day to day reality of people. It's all just virtue signaling. So this is Holland's middle finger to the leftist establishment - just like Trump in the US, Milei in Argentina, Meloni in Italy. The mainstream leftist parties don't want to touch anything difficult like immigration or housing. So that leaves a big opening for the Geert Wilders of the world.

Yah I didn’t think Nethexit was an actual risk - just replying to PP who claimed step 2 would be that.

Yes I agree with your analysis of why many Dutch are concerned about immigration, house prices and rising cost of living/ inflation. We lived in the Netherlands and have a lot of family there: and your observations about popular concerns ring true.

However, I disagree that center left parties are not trying hard to tackle these difficult issues. Often center left parties actually have the more realistic strategies to create more affordable housing, contain illegal immigration, integrate existing immigrants, and rein in inflation. They do have a messaging and communication problem and that often allows far right extremists to dominate narratives as if their solutions are viable when often they are not.

US intelligence has warned us that both Russia and China are pumping billions of dollars into misinformation campaigns not just in the US but throughout many Western democracies. The extensive misinformation undermines confidence in democratic government and exploits populist fears related to illegal immigration and society changing too fast. That is not to say these problems don’t exist - but that authoritarian right wing politicians don’t have constructive solutions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Step one complete. Step two leave the EU.

So they can enjoy the same sharp declines in economic and labor opportunities as well as sharp ris s in consumer products as Great Britain did following Brexit? Ask the British farmers how they feel about Brexit now …

There's no significant move in the Netherlands to depart the EU. Holland is very pro-EU.

The issues that got Geert Wilders his votes have been simmering for a long time. Immigration. And it's not so much the Turks and the Moroccans. Or much less Indonesians. Those are long established communities in Holland. It's the newer arrivals from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and sub-Sahara Africa. These folks have no inclination of assimilating or starting a new life. Their views on many things, particularly women and LGBTQ, are not remotely the same as Europeans. They seem very content to live as parasites on the system and far too often they're violent. Holland is not America. People don't keep their head on a swivel. So it's always a shock.

But it's more than that. It's rental and housing prices. It's resentment over the really severe Covid restrictions the government imposed. There's a general feeling that the more leftist parties don't actually care about the day to day reality of people. It's all just virtue signaling. So this is Holland's middle finger to the leftist establishment - just like Trump in the US, Milei in Argentina, Meloni in Italy. The mainstream leftist parties don't want to touch anything difficult like immigration or housing. So that leaves a big opening for the Geert Wilders of the world.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Step one complete. Step two leave the EU.

So they can enjoy the same sharp declines in economic and labor opportunities as well as sharp ris s in consumer products as Great Britain did following Brexit? Ask the British farmers how they feel about Brexit now …

yes that went well …



Brexit and the economy: the hit has been ‘substantially negative’

https://www.ft.com/content/e39d0315-fd5b-47c8-8560-04bb786f2c13

Almost two years after Britain left the EU, economists have reached a consensus: Brexit has significantly worsened the country’s economic performance.

They agree that the vote to leave the bloc has made households poorer, that negotiating uncertainties have taken their toll on business investment and that new barriers to trade have damaged economic links between the UK and EU.


British Economy Worst Hit in G7 as Brexit, Political Chaos Bite
November 22, 2022 8:50 PM
* Henry Ridgwell

https://www.voanews.com/a/british-economy-worst-hit-in-g7-as-brexit-political-chaos-bite/6845814.html
LONDON — 

Britain’s economy is forecast to shrink by 0.4% in 2023, more than any other in the Group of Seven richest nations, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). Britain is the only G-7 member whose economy has yet to return to pre-pandemic levels.

In the Group of 20, or G-20, largest economies, only Russia’s is expected to fare worse than Britain’s in the coming two years.



Brexit has cracked Britain's economic foundations
Analysis by Hanna Ziady, CNN
Updated 8:35 AM EST, Sat December 24, 2022

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/24/economy/brexit-uk-economy/index.html

London(CNN) It's been two years since former Prime Minister Boris Johnson signed his Brexit trade deal and triumphantly declared that Britain would be "prosperous, dynamic and contented" after completing its exit from the European Union.

The Brexit deal would enable UK companies to "do even more business" with the European Union, according to Johnson, and would leave Britain free to strike trade deals around the world while continuing to export seamlessly to the EU market of 450 million consumers.

In reality, Brexit has hobbled the UK economy, which remains the only member of the G7 — the group of advanced economies that also includes Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the United States — with an economy smaller than it was before the pandemic.

Anonymous wrote:Step one complete. Step two leave the EU.

So they can enjoy the same sharp declines in economic and labor opportunities as well as sharp ris s in consumer products as Great Britain did following Brexit? Ask the British farmers how they feel about Brexit now …

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow! Netherlands was the most progressive country for literally centuries. It is in their DNA.
Shocking. Though having lived in Europe 20+ years ago and going back (to Netherlands) last year, I can also understand it.

Melting pots only work when the ingredients can mix.

That’s part of the issue - Dutch progressives fear that socially conservative poorly educated immigrants undermine their traditionally progressive values around GTLBQ / legal prostitution/ legal recreational drug use and euthanasia.

This is what I was wondering. With only surface level knowledge, the immigrants seem more conservative than the governments. We see that in the US too with some immigrant groups who are much more socially conservative, but maybe more socially liberal.

So it’s more like Dutch social conservatives vs some more socially conservative immigrants.

The timing of the elections happened right after there were massive protests across the Netherlands in support of Gaza including during rush hour at major train station in Amsterdam. At least one protest there was a couple a minutes of people reading the Koran. Perhaps it was a passage about peace but if you are a commuter and on the fence about who to vote for then this tips you toward a right wing anti-immigrant candidate.

When Trump was elected a lot of racists were emboldened. The same thing is going to happen in the Netherlands. Some immigrants are doing well in the Netherlands. Girls with a Moroccan background are doing especially well and are more likely to come out of school with a diploma than Dutch boys.

I just want to say that I really appreciate this thread for being so nuanced and addressing the actual complexities of Europe’s immigration situation and what has led to the ascendant right wing. Rather than the usual reductionist thinking about labeling people as bigots and fascists, or gloating about owning the woke libs.

Anonymous wrote:The issue is that the Netherlands wanted guest workers in the 60’s and 70’s so invited workers from Turkey and Morocco to go to the Netherlands and work. Add to that immigrants from Muslim former Dutch colonies like Indonesia. These immigrants were welcomed to work but not really integrate. There are really few under 5 to 10% intermarriage between Dutch and Moroccan immigrants.

So if you don’t feel welcomed you stuck with your own. The right wingers believe from a leading Dutch right winger-
“Islam is not only a religion, it is a way of life. In this, its vision goes counter to the liberal separation of church and state.”

I lived in the Netherlands during second generation of Turkish guest worker immigrants.

I think what you say is true - however, another part of it is that the guest worked were generally poorly educated manual workers (eg a Rotterdam Harbor, which is the largest and busiest harbor in Europe and why the Nazis bombed it to smithereens to get the Futch to surrender during WW2). The Turkish guest workers and their descendants tended to be far more conservative than Turks themselves who modernized public dress codes for women and moved closer to mainstream European values.

Indonesian immigrants were better integrated from what I could see.

Part of the fear of immigrants is related to fear of losing their societal tolerance for gays/ bi/ trans people, legal prostitution and legal recreational drug use (even though most Dutch don’t use drugs, they prefer to keep it legal and taxed). They have generous social welfare programs and low teen pregnancy rates due to education and strong reproductive rights that they are afraid of losing. They are intolerant of intolerance.

MAGA single issue anti immigration voters tend to support other right wing culture war issues such as unfettered gun rights, anti GBTLQ, anti abortion etc.

So I don’t think the Dutch who oppose unbridled immigration are literally equivalent to MAGA anti immigration single issue voters.

Anonymous wrote:The issue is immigration. People from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan don't seem particularly interested in becoming Dutch and accepting Dutch norms - whether the role of women, LGBTQ, work, etc etc. Plus all the violence these immigrants often bring. The Dutch are fed up. It's a small country. It's not like there's a lot of space. Everyone needs to live together. The immigrants that Holland has taken do not seem inclined to assimilate, even with all the benefits. The Dutch are as liberal as ever. But the immigrants are not generally tolerant. So there's a very strong electoral backlash.

There are not a lot of jobs for illiterate people or people who do not speak the language.
You really need a degree from the local university or trade school to be employable
A refugee from Afghanistan with a wife and kids and who doesn’t have formal education even from his home country is a hopeless forever welfare recipient

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The issue is immigration. People from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan don't seem particularly interested in becoming Dutch and accepting Dutch norms - whether the role of women, LGBTQ, work, etc etc. Plus all the violence these immigrants often bring. The Dutch are fed up. It's a small country. It's not like there's a lot of space. Everyone needs to live together. The immigrants that Holland has taken do not seem inclined to assimilate, even with all the benefits. The Dutch are as liberal as ever. But the immigrants are not generally tolerant. So there's a very strong electoral backlash.

Why don't you see these attitudes in the American Muslim diaspora?

DP. Because it’s the numbers game.

Correct. The Muslim population isn't big enough in the US to have a meaningful presence or influence. Very different in Europe. But you only need to see the recent elections in a Muslim majority Michigan town to see what can happen.

European left politics have a weird and complicated relationship with Muslim voters, who tend to support left politicians for being welcoming as well as for generous social benefits, but remain vastly socially conservative and flex that muscle when they want to. This can't go on much longer.

Pretty much this. It’s uncomfortable as hell for more liberal-minded folks to discuss what is happening in Hamtramck and in Dearborn. The same liberal folks who stood side by side with the Muslim minority in Hamtramck are now being screwed over by the Musl8m leadership in their city.

Step one complete. Step two leave the EU.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The issue is immigration. People from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan don't seem particularly interested in becoming Dutch and accepting Dutch norms - whether the role of women, LGBTQ, work, etc etc. Plus all the violence these immigrants often bring. The Dutch are fed up. It's a small country. It's not like there's a lot of space. Everyone needs to live together. The immigrants that Holland has taken do not seem inclined to assimilate, even with all the benefits. The Dutch are as liberal as ever. But the immigrants are not generally tolerant. So there's a very strong electoral backlash.

Why don't you see these attitudes in the American Muslim diaspora?

DP. Because it’s the numbers game.

Correct. The Muslim population isn't big enough in the US to have a meaningful presence or influence. Very different in Europe. But you only need to see the recent elections in a Muslim majority Michigan town to see what can happen.

European left politics have a weird and complicated relationship with Muslim voters, who tend to support left politicians for being welcoming as well as for generous social benefits, but remain vastly socially conservative and flex that muscle when they want to. This can't go on much longer.