Anonymous
Post 11/01/2023 12:06     Subject: What is this dynamic with DH?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It's the thing that you are describing. Are you looking for a diagnosis of hi personality? How would it help you? (Genuine question) You know you don't like it.

NP it would be great to have a label to this for research purposes. I have seen this behavior before and it certainly helps that person as everyone backs off knowing you can't argue with crazy.


I think it’s just defensiveness. It probably means they had a highly critical or angry parent. So when they make a mistake, and the spouse comes at them for it, they throw up every wall they have including making themselves the victim instead of the offender, which was probably learned from the same bad parent.

I’m not saying it’s okay but I think that’s what it is. It’s defensive maneuvers.

Alternatively, his parents are people of few words and in essences neglected him. This can happen in Households where parent(s) have disorders or are on the spectrum, just dont interact or connect much. Or have to spend all time and resources in a special needs or troubled sibling.

Thus now that he IS getting bids for attention or much interact in a household, it’s for the first time. His parents did not role model this. They role modeled silence, or worse (dysfunction, stonewalling, arguing).

DP--these are both so helpful. And sadly, so descriptive of my DH too.

Even last night, we went trick or treating. Our 6 year old had to go potty at the last minute before everyone was set to take off, I hurried her into our friend's house, and helped her, we came out and the kids had taken off with some of the adults, my husband started yelling at me for why it took so long and the other kids left 5 minutes ago. Like we were idling in there, or what, did he want our daughter to have an accident or be stranded in the neighborhood when we had to go? Then when we got home he started yelling that it was so late and why wasn't I getting the kids to bed earlier and hurry up, etc etc. I feel so completely exhausted from constantly being berated and ridiculed. DH's mom was very critical and yelling for him growing up, and while she is much less so, they have a very fire and ice dynamic still, and his parents generally don't address things and sweep them under the rug. I've had my own therapist this year, and DH refuses to go, says he doesn't get the point.

He need individual therapy where you get looped in once a month to keep things honest.
Anonymous
Post 10/31/2023 14:27     Subject: What is this dynamic with DH?
Anonymous wrote:There absolutely is a name for this: DARVO. Deny, Attack, Reverse Victem and Offender. You can do it big scale or small scale. So easy to do. My DH did it to me yesterday. We were driving, he wasn't looking. I yelled "look out" when we were about to collide with another car. I yelled instinctively because I was scared we were about to get hit.

He got upset that I yelled at him. He got defensive about his driving, and then turned it around to blame me for yelling at him. I actually expected to get an thank you for saving us from getting hit instead of defenfensive "OK, I'M SORRY!"

The pattern is very easy to fall into.

I also apologize for yelling - see how he did that? He wasn't looking while driving and I apogized for yelling in fear.
Anonymous
Post 10/31/2023 14:25     Subject: What is this dynamic with DH?
There absolutely is a name for this: DARVO. Deny, Attack, Reverse Victem and Offender. You can do it big scale or small scale. So easy to do. My DH did it to me yesterday. We were driving, he wasn't looking. I yelled "look out" when we were about to collide with another car. I yelled instinctively because I was scared we were about to get hit.

He got upset that I yelled at him. He got defensive about his driving, and then turned it around to blame me for yelling at him. I actually expected to get an thank you for saving us from getting hit instead of defenfensive "OK, I'M SORRY!"

The pattern is very easy to fall into.
Anonymous
Post 10/31/2023 13:12     Subject: What is this dynamic with DH?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It's the thing that you are describing. Are you looking for a diagnosis of hi personality? How would it help you? (Genuine question) You know you don't like it.

NP it would be great to have a label to this for research purposes. I have seen this behavior before and it certainly helps that person as everyone backs off knowing you can't argue with crazy.


I think it’s just defensiveness. It probably means they had a highly critical or angry parent. So when they make a mistake, and the spouse comes at them for it, they throw up every wall they have including making themselves the victim instead of the offender, which was probably learned from the same bad parent.

I’m not saying it’s okay but I think that’s what it is. It’s defensive maneuvers.

Alternatively, his parents are people of few words and in essences neglected him. This can happen in Households where parent(s) have disorders or are on the spectrum, just dont interact or connect much. Or have to spend all time and resources in a special needs or troubled sibling.

Thus now that he IS getting bids for attention or much interact in a household, it’s for the first time. His parents did not role model this. They role modeled silence, or worse (dysfunction, stonewalling, arguing).

He need individual therapy where you get looped in once a month to keep things honest.


Oh wow. This is OP.

His parents are immigrants and have very high standards but are also hands-off. His dad may be on the spectrum or it may just be language and cultural barriers- I can’t tell. They do deal with big problems with silence. His sister has some kind of secret mental illness that no one talks about and pretends like it doesn’t exist, but she is out of work and hospitalized every couple of years. His extended family also tells stories about accommodating DH in a tee hee, wasn't he cute kind of way. But it’s easy to read between the lines and see that it was stuff like always trying to get him the meal that he would like even if everyone else was eating something else so he wouldn’t tantrum or pout…and this was at 12, not 6.

I see lots of defensiveness and other maladaptive stuff that PPs mention, but this reply was so accurate it took my breath away. Is this common? PP, how did you know?!


See if you can get him to read Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents.

My husband had the situation of the first PP - his dad was verbally abusive mostly towards his mom, and she would then lash out and criticize everything my husband did. She would do this in front of me as well, so it wasn't just when he was a child.

My husband has since been in therapy and it has helped immensely. When we would argue in the past I would often say to him that I felt like he was angry with someone else, not me. I'd say I felt like I was crazy because I never needled him or criticized him or yelled at him or put him down but he would feel like that's what I had done. I would be so confused because I'm not like that with anyone and it hurt my feelings that he thought I'd attack him. Once the therapist helped him identify what was going on, I said oh my gosh do you remember how I've said before that it felt like you were arguing with someone else while talking to me? And he said yes, it felt like when my mom would attack me.

He read that book and said it was so eye-opening. I would also suggest your husband do some therapy, because the way he grew up is definitely causing the way he's acting, and understanding that should help him.
Anonymous
Post 10/31/2023 13:11     Subject: Re:What is this dynamic with DH?
I have something similar going on with DH. Extremely defensive. He cannot apologize at all. He won't go to therapy. We are just existing in the same space for now. I have realized I cannot have conversations with him anymore. Stonewalling, silent treatment, and gaslighting. He does all three. After he started saying, "You have a history of not remembering things," I started taping our conversations. I hope your DH will go to therapy. If he doesn't want to change, it's not going to improve.
Anonymous
Post 10/31/2023 12:31     Subject: What is this dynamic with DH?
Anonymous wrote:Every time you see him beginning to spiral down this hole of defensiveness, disengage as quickly as possible telling him you'd rather talk about this topic later.

And then, every time, bring it up the next day when he is calm starting in a place of curiosity by asking him questions about what he thinks happened and what could have made the interaction more productive.

You need him to reflect on this and he only has a chance of being able to do this when he is calm.


Right, she needs to walk away and gray rock him the second he begins to get abusive, defensive, insulting or starts to gaslight.

He's highly manipulative and it's obvious he's never learned about healthy conflict resolution or had it modeled for him by his own parents... don't allow him to pass that trait onto your kids too. Break that cycle.

The moment he/the conversation starts to devolve, tell him you'll finish discussing it when it stays a productive conversation.
Next time, do the same thing.
Instruct your kids to do that as well... he'll eventually get the point that nobody in the house is putting up with his tantrums anymore.
Anonymous
Post 10/31/2023 12:06     Subject: Re:What is this dynamic with DH?
Anonymous wrote:He probably needs to learn conflict skills in therapy.

Any chance that there is divorce in his family of origin?

I have several guy friends (married to one of them) who are and they all are like this when they are upset about something.

My husband went to therapy with me and the therapist spent all of our sessions teaching him these skills. It helped a lot. He wouldn’t go alone. I’m just glad I got him to go at all.


DP, not OP. Glad to read that this kind of "I'm the real victim here" knee-jerk reaction can change, with outside help. Glad your DH did end up going to therapy, too, PP.

OP, heed this PP. Your DH is not likely to see the problem, he's so used to reacting this way. You need to do what this PP did and get him to go to therapy together. You need a therapist to, as PP puts it, "teach him these skills." The bad reactions can be unlearned and positive communications can be learned but it takes work.

PP, how did you get your DH to go to therapy with you? How did you get him, or how did the therapist get him, actually to listen, participate and do the work, instead of just sitting there stewing or not seeing the issue? So many wives on DCUM say over and over, "He'll never go to therapy, never. He sees it as weak, etc." How did you persuade your DH to go in the first place? That could be helpful to a lot of women here.
Anonymous
Post 10/31/2023 11:25     Subject: What is this dynamic with DH?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Last night DH said something really rude and thoughtless (and inaccurate!) related to our shared finances. The finances aren’t the point and they’re quite healthy, so I won’t go into tedious details.

In the course of this discussion, he became really rigid and stubborn and somehow flipped an insult he had lobbed at me into the conversation being all about his hurt feelings. He raised his voice and pouted and then stormed away not talking and spent the night on the couch.

This is a pattern- he says something unkind, thoughtless or rude to me, escalates the situation when I tell him he can’t treat me like that, and then walks out of the situation, turns on the silent treatment and sulks around as if he’s the victim.

He absolutely can never be wrong and I’ve seen him argue with our kids in the same stubborn way. Part of me thinks that whenever he realizes he’s behaving badly he deliberately tries to twist the situation to cover his shame/embarrassment and make me the bad guy. Is that a thing? Does it have a name?


DARVO

It’s abusive.

And juvenile and immature.

Has he always been such a poor communicator?


Thank you, I looked up DARVO and this describes the situation.

He’s always been sort of meh as a communicator but as life gets more complicated, there is more to communicate about so it has become more obvious.
Anonymous
Post 10/31/2023 11:23     Subject: What is this dynamic with DH?
Anonymous wrote:Every time you see him beginning to spiral down this hole of defensiveness, disengage as quickly as possible telling him you'd rather talk about this topic later.

And then, every time, bring it up the next day when he is calm starting in a place of curiosity by asking him questions about what he thinks happened and what could have made the interaction more productive.

You need him to reflect on this and he only has a chance of being able to do this when he is calm.


How does this work if being asked about it make him go from calm to crazy again in seconds? I think his expectation is that a conversation that makes him uncomfortable should just never happen, full stop.
Anonymous
Post 10/31/2023 11:21     Subject: What is this dynamic with DH?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Last night DH said something really rude and thoughtless (and inaccurate!) related to our shared finances. The finances aren’t the point and they’re quite healthy, so I won’t go into tedious details.

In the course of this discussion, he became really rigid and stubborn and somehow flipped an insult he had lobbed at me into the conversation being all about his hurt feelings. He raised his voice and pouted and then stormed away not talking and spent the night on the couch.

This is a pattern- he says something unkind, thoughtless or rude to me, escalates the situation when I tell him he can’t treat me like that, and then walks out of the situation, turns on the silent treatment and sulks around as if he’s the victim.

He absolutely can never be wrong and I’ve seen him argue with our kids in the same stubborn way. Part of me thinks that whenever he realizes he’s behaving badly he deliberately tries to twist the situation to cover his shame/embarrassment and make me the bad guy. Is that a thing? Does it have a name?



So, you wasted some money and he got mad?


I didn’t waste any money, he is just clueless about what basic things cost and questioned a Target bill for toothpaste, ibuprofen and paper towels.
Anonymous
Post 10/31/2023 11:19     Subject: What is this dynamic with DH?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It's the thing that you are describing. Are you looking for a diagnosis of hi personality? How would it help you? (Genuine question) You know you don't like it.

NP it would be great to have a label to this for research purposes. I have seen this behavior before and it certainly helps that person as everyone backs off knowing you can't argue with crazy.


I think it’s just defensiveness. It probably means they had a highly critical or angry parent. So when they make a mistake, and the spouse comes at them for it, they throw up every wall they have including making themselves the victim instead of the offender, which was probably learned from the same bad parent.

I’m not saying it’s okay but I think that’s what it is. It’s defensive maneuvers.

Alternatively, his parents are people of few words and in essences neglected him. This can happen in Households where parent(s) have disorders or are on the spectrum, just dont interact or connect much. Or have to spend all time and resources in a special needs or troubled sibling.

Thus now that he IS getting bids for attention or much interact in a household, it’s for the first time. His parents did not role model this. They role modeled silence, or worse (dysfunction, stonewalling, arguing).

He need individual therapy where you get looped in once a month to keep things honest.


Oh wow. This is OP.

His parents are immigrants and have very high standards but are also hands-off. His dad may be on the spectrum or it may just be language and cultural barriers- I can’t tell. They do deal with big problems with silence. His sister has some kind of secret mental illness that no one talks about and pretends like it doesn’t exist, but she is out of work and hospitalized every couple of years. His extended family also tells stories about accommodating DH in a tee hee, wasn't he cute kind of way. But it’s easy to read between the lines and see that it was stuff like always trying to get him the meal that he would like even if everyone else was eating something else so he wouldn’t tantrum or pout…and this was at 12, not 6.

I see lots of defensiveness and other maladaptive stuff that PPs mention, but this reply was so accurate it took my breath away. Is this common? PP, how did you know?!
Anonymous
Post 10/31/2023 11:16     Subject: Re:What is this dynamic with DH?
My DH does the same and I’m so relieved you took the time to type it out because it’s like reading my own thoughts.
Anonymous
Post 10/31/2023 11:09     Subject: Re:What is this dynamic with DH?
Anonymous wrote:Emotional immaturity.

My DH is very similar, unfortunately.


+1 same
Anonymous
Post 10/31/2023 11:06     Subject: Re:What is this dynamic with DH?
Emotional immaturity.

My DH is very similar, unfortunately.
Anonymous
Post 10/31/2023 11:01     Subject: What is this dynamic with DH?
Anonymous wrote:Last night DH said something really rude and thoughtless (and inaccurate!) related to our shared finances. The finances aren’t the point and they’re quite healthy, so I won’t go into tedious details.

In the course of this discussion, he became really rigid and stubborn and somehow flipped an insult he had lobbed at me into the conversation being all about his hurt feelings. He raised his voice and pouted and then stormed away not talking and spent the night on the couch.

This is a pattern- he says something unkind, thoughtless or rude to me, escalates the situation when I tell him he can’t treat me like that, and then walks out of the situation, turns on the silent treatment and sulks around as if he’s the victim.

He absolutely can never be wrong and I’ve seen him argue with our kids in the same stubborn way. Part of me thinks that whenever he realizes he’s behaving badly he deliberately tries to twist the situation to cover his shame/embarrassment and make me the bad guy. Is that a thing? Does it have a name?



So, you wasted some money and he got mad?