Anonymous
10/31/2023 10:47
Subject: What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I don't care about whether AAP exists or not or whether centers are an option or not. I just want a system where kids who are above grade level in a subject can receive above grade level instruction in that subject.
AAP doesn't seem to work correctly in that manner, since a lot of kids who are above grade level aren't being admitted, and a lot of kids, even from the same school, who are on or below grade level are being admitted.
The HOPE scale seems like more proof that FCPS can't decide whether AAP is a gifted program, an above grade level instructional program, or a talent development program. It's trying to wear all 3 hats and is doing it quite poorly.
A lot of kids = a handful
I don't know exactly how it works now but before they changed everything, most kids were where you would expect them to be, the smart/bright/gifted kids in AAP and the regular kids in gen ed. It's only on DCUM where the gifted kids all get left out and the undeserving are admitted.
Wrong. Back in the day, when test scores mattered the most, your viewpoint would be correct. Now, when GBRS is 4 times more important than any test score, the above grade level kids with high cogats who are viewed by their second grade teacher as quite academically advanced but not especially creative or motivated don't get admitted to AAP.
The HOPE scale looks like a big improvement in this respect, since there are more academic categories and fewer fluff categories.
Anonymous
10/31/2023 10:38
Subject: Re:What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
Anonymous wrote:The new HOPE survey also adds 3 new academic areas for a teacher to consider when recommending a student for AAP:
World Languages , Visual Arts
, Performing Arts
What about science and social studies? I only remember The GBRS considering math and LA, but it’s been over a decade since I’ve seen one. Am I wrong?
Anonymous
10/31/2023 09:59
Subject: What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
Anonymous wrote:I don't care about whether AAP exists or not or whether centers are an option or not. I just want a system where kids who are above grade level in a subject can receive above grade level instruction in that subject.
AAP doesn't seem to work correctly in that manner, since a lot of kids who are above grade level aren't being admitted, and a lot of kids, even from the same school, who are on or below grade level are being admitted.
The HOPE scale seems like more proof that FCPS can't decide whether AAP is a gifted program, an above grade level instructional program, or a talent development program. It's trying to wear all 3 hats and is doing it quite poorly.
A lot of kids = a handful
I don't know exactly how it works now but before they changed everything, most kids were where you would expect them to be, the smart/bright/gifted kids in AAP and the regular kids in gen ed. It's only on DCUM where the gifted kids all get left out and the undeserving are admitted.
Anonymous
10/31/2023 09:44
Subject: What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
I don't care about whether AAP exists or not or whether centers are an option or not. I just want a system where kids who are above grade level in a subject can receive above grade level instruction in that subject.
AAP doesn't seem to work correctly in that manner, since a lot of kids who are above grade level aren't being admitted, and a lot of kids, even from the same school, who are on or below grade level are being admitted.
The HOPE scale seems like more proof that FCPS can't decide whether AAP is a gifted program, an above grade level instructional program, or a talent development program. It's trying to wear all 3 hats and is doing it quite poorly.
AAP doesn't seem to work correctly in that manner, since a lot of kids who are above grade level aren't being admitted, and a lot of kids, even from the same school, who are on or below grade level are being admitted.
The HOPE scale seems like more proof that FCPS can't decide whether AAP is a gifted program, an above grade level instructional program, or a talent development program. It's trying to wear all 3 hats and is doing it quite poorly.
Anonymous
10/31/2023 09:11
Subject: Re:What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
Anonymous wrote:There is more to being smart, AAP is not a gifted program, then a test score and there are more ways to demonstrate that you are smart then an test score. I would be shocked if a kid who is listed as strong in only Art is accepted into AAP.
It doesn’t matter what rubric they use, the IQ only folks are not going to be happy. And theya re not happy that a kid at a school where the high IQ score is a 132 is accepted into AAP when their kids 140 isn’t because you still can’t see that different kids have had different opportunities and all of that affects test scores. The fact that the Title 1 kid with a 125 on the CoGAT is in AAP at a Title 1 school or a near Title 1 Center is somehow an injustice when your 140 MC/UMC kid has to sit in Gen Ed with the kids who are mainly on grade level.
This is why I want the Centers gone and AAP based only on the local school. You don’t want to move to the Title 1 school so your kid can be in AAP so stop comparing your kids school and scores to the Title 1 schools scores. I promise you, the MC/UMC schools have CoGAT and NNAT baselines above a 132 while the lower scores are clustered at the Title 1 schools. Your kid is getting a better education in the Gen Ed MC/UMC school the the kid in AAP at a Title 1 school.
I know! Few kids in AAP are even close to an IQ of 140. It's not a gifted program. Half the kids get in on appeal after being prepped to the gills. Most of these posters just want a system they can game by purchasing test access.
Anonymous
10/31/2023 08:38
Subject: Re:What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
Anonymous wrote:There is more to being smart, AAP is not a gifted program, then a test score and there are more ways to demonstrate that you are smart then an test score. I would be shocked if a kid who is listed as strong in only Art is accepted into AAP.
It doesn’t matter what rubric they use, the IQ only folks are not going to be happy. And theya re not happy that a kid at a school where the high IQ score is a 132 is accepted into AAP when their kids 140 isn’t because you still can’t see that different kids have had different opportunities and all of that affects test scores. The fact that the Title 1 kid with a 125 on the CoGAT is in AAP at a Title 1 school or a near Title 1 Center is somehow an injustice when your 140 MC/UMC kid has to sit in Gen Ed with the kids who are mainly on grade level.
This is why I want the Centers gone and AAP based only on the local school. You don’t want to move to the Title 1 school so your kid can be in AAP so stop comparing your kids school and scores to the Title 1 schools scores. I promise you, the MC/UMC schools have CoGAT and NNAT baselines above a 132 while the lower scores are clustered at the Title 1 schools. Your kid is getting a better education in the Gen Ed MC/UMC school the the kid in AAP at a Title 1 school.
I wish you weren't in charge. It's not an either or - both of those students should go to a center school. Iq has real meaning and the original purpose of the GT programs are still valid. Unfortunately, though, the ones in charge think just like you. It's only an injustice to the Title I kid, not to the MC/UMC kid.
Anonymous
10/31/2023 08:22
Subject: Re:What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
There is more to being smart, AAP is not a gifted program, then a test score and there are more ways to demonstrate that you are smart then an test score. I would be shocked if a kid who is listed as strong in only Art is accepted into AAP.
It doesn’t matter what rubric they use, the IQ only folks are not going to be happy. And theya re not happy that a kid at a school where the high IQ score is a 132 is accepted into AAP when their kids 140 isn’t because you still can’t see that different kids have had different opportunities and all of that affects test scores. The fact that the Title 1 kid with a 125 on the CoGAT is in AAP at a Title 1 school or a near Title 1 Center is somehow an injustice when your 140 MC/UMC kid has to sit in Gen Ed with the kids who are mainly on grade level.
This is why I want the Centers gone and AAP based only on the local school. You don’t want to move to the Title 1 school so your kid can be in AAP so stop comparing your kids school and scores to the Title 1 schools scores. I promise you, the MC/UMC schools have CoGAT and NNAT baselines above a 132 while the lower scores are clustered at the Title 1 schools. Your kid is getting a better education in the Gen Ed MC/UMC school the the kid in AAP at a Title 1 school.
It doesn’t matter what rubric they use, the IQ only folks are not going to be happy. And theya re not happy that a kid at a school where the high IQ score is a 132 is accepted into AAP when their kids 140 isn’t because you still can’t see that different kids have had different opportunities and all of that affects test scores. The fact that the Title 1 kid with a 125 on the CoGAT is in AAP at a Title 1 school or a near Title 1 Center is somehow an injustice when your 140 MC/UMC kid has to sit in Gen Ed with the kids who are mainly on grade level.
This is why I want the Centers gone and AAP based only on the local school. You don’t want to move to the Title 1 school so your kid can be in AAP so stop comparing your kids school and scores to the Title 1 schools scores. I promise you, the MC/UMC schools have CoGAT and NNAT baselines above a 132 while the lower scores are clustered at the Title 1 schools. Your kid is getting a better education in the Gen Ed MC/UMC school the the kid in AAP at a Title 1 school.
Anonymous
10/31/2023 08:05
Subject: What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
Anonymous wrote:Seems like a way to weed out 2E students.
+1
This is also what you get when AAP is seen as a reward, not an appropriate instruction level.
Anonymous
10/31/2023 00:03
Subject: What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The thing is— none of that indicates whether a kid needs full time AAP or is going to be successful in Advanced Math. It’s not Advanced Compassion or Advanced Visual Arts.
It’s great to recognize that our kids have strengths in all kinds of areas and that they all have value. But why would you use this type of data to accelerate a child in the four main academic subjects?
This!!
A kid who is a stellar artist does not necessarily need advanced math and reading. Why is that relevant?
This new “Hope” scale looks like another attempt to “close the racial achievement gap from the top down.”
Essentially the Hope scale will slow-down the accelerated math and English classes by adding kids who are good at “performing arts,” but probably do not otherwise have the academic scores to get into AAP.
An AAP class can only move as fast as the lowest common denominator/ student in the class.
With E3 math rolling out, most kids won’t be prepared for 6th grade math in 5th plus the focus on non academics with this HOPE form, most of the new admits won’t need it anyway. Advanced math disappears and a new equitable class of AAP appears with varied “gifted” interests.
Straight from the creators of HOPE:
“ The HOPE Teacher Rating Scale is designed to help guide teachers in identifying gifted students for programming. It is unique in several ways. First, it is short, with only 11 items that measure academic and social/affective components of giftedness, making it easy to use. Second, it is invariant when used to identify students from low-income and culturally diverse families. Third, it can be used across grade levels, K-12. Finally, local norms ensure that the data are relevant to the specific school populations. With multiple measures and multiple pathways crucial for reversing the inequities in identifying culturally, economically, and linguistically diverse students, a teacher-nomination instrument like the HOPE Teacher Rating Scale is an important component of identification systems.”
It appears FCPS AAP is headed to be one like Loudoun Public Schools' gifted program, Futura and Spectrum, which is free from academics completely. There are no math, science, or English components, and no exams. Instead, it focuses on arts and crafts, Sudoku, panic room field trips, and for grading it's self-assessment. Superficially, it retains the appearance of a gifted program with CogAT and NNAT entrance tests, but half of the students are filled with students who didnt score even the average percentile. In fact teachers are provided a list of students who didnt make through the test, and they are to recommend a diverse group of students to the program, irrespective of their academic performance. That's how diversity is achieved, using non academic criteria. However, many students find the program unfulfilling, and a significant number choose not to continue. Most of the students in this program struggle in their regular academic classes. Nevertheless, it is deemed a gifted program that promotes diversity.
Anonymous
10/30/2023 23:45
Subject: What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
Anonymous wrote:The thing is— none of that indicates whether a kid needs full time AAP or is going to be successful in Advanced Math. It’s not Advanced Compassion or Advanced Visual Arts.
It’s great to recognize that our kids have strengths in all kinds of areas and that they all have value. But why would you use this type of data to accelerate a child in the four main academic subjects?
Teachers cant force math or science into low performing student's head. But equity requires that everyone be called advanced, so new namesake categories that are non-math or non-science or non-english have to be created, so that students who are failing in math, science, and english, can be put into those and called advanced too. So everyone is advanced. Equity is achieved.
Schools no longer can teach, they are forced to come up with BS to make everyone feel equal, whether they study or not.
Anonymous
10/30/2023 21:10
Subject: What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The thing is— none of that indicates whether a kid needs full time AAP or is going to be successful in Advanced Math. It’s not Advanced Compassion or Advanced Visual Arts.
It’s great to recognize that our kids have strengths in all kinds of areas and that they all have value. But why would you use this type of data to accelerate a child in the four main academic subjects?
This!!
A kid who is a stellar artist does not necessarily need advanced math and reading. Why is that relevant?
This new “Hope” scale looks like another attempt to “close the racial achievement gap from the top down.”
Essentially the Hope scale will slow-down the accelerated math and English classes by adding kids who are good at “performing arts,” but probably do not otherwise have the academic scores to get into AAP.
An AAP class can only move as fast as the lowest common denominator/ student in the class.
With E3 math rolling out, most kids won’t be prepared for 6th grade math in 5th plus the focus on non academics with this HOPE form, most of the new admits won’t need it anyway. Advanced math disappears and a new equitable class of AAP appears with varied “gifted” interests.
Straight from the creators of HOPE:
“ The HOPE Teacher Rating Scale is designed to help guide teachers in identifying gifted students for programming. It is unique in several ways. First, it is short, with only 11 items that measure academic and social/affective components of giftedness, making it easy to use. Second, it is invariant when used to identify students from low-income and culturally diverse families. Third, it can be used across grade levels, K-12. Finally, local norms ensure that the data are relevant to the specific school populations. With multiple measures and multiple pathways crucial for reversing the inequities in identifying culturally, economically, and linguistically diverse students, a teacher-nomination instrument like the HOPE Teacher Rating Scale is an important component of identification systems.”
Anonymous
10/30/2023 20:40
Subject: What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The thing is— none of that indicates whether a kid needs full time AAP or is going to be successful in Advanced Math. It’s not Advanced Compassion or Advanced Visual Arts.
It’s great to recognize that our kids have strengths in all kinds of areas and that they all have value. But why would you use this type of data to accelerate a child in the four main academic subjects?
This!!
A kid who is a stellar artist does not necessarily need advanced math and reading. Why is that relevant?
This new “Hope” scale looks like another attempt to “close the racial achievement gap from the top down.”
Essentially the Hope scale will slow-down the accelerated math and English classes by adding kids who are good at “performing arts,” but probably do not otherwise have the academic scores to get into AAP.
An AAP class can only move as fast as the lowest common denominator/ student in the class.
Anonymous
10/30/2023 20:40
Subject: What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think we will have to wait and see. I hope the teachers took a class on how to fill it out appropriately.
This. How will it be possible to have consistent scoring? Some teachers will be more lenient than others.
This will always be the case. It is a part of life. See the many threads on “Easy vs hard teachers” and the complaints about GBRS and Teachers using different methods for assigning the GBRS scores
Anonymous
10/30/2023 20:39
Subject: Re:What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
The form asks what areas a kid is strong in and includes math, reading, science, social studies, foreign language, creative writing, and arts.
Is sensitive to larger or deeper issues of human concern probably means that they are well read on a particular issue like global warming or systemic racism that ties into deeper understanding of an issue or intensity in an issue.
Shows compassion for others is the only one getting an eye roll from me as a measure of giftedness. All the rest tie into gifted traits pretty easily.
As for leaving comments, the GBRS form was just a form, there was a separate page where they left comments on each section.
I would guess that they will be looking for kids who are strong in all of the academic areas (math, science, social studies, and writing) and that the others are ignored. Although there are plenty of people who used to submit letters of recommendations from music teachers because they showed perseverance and music is tied to mathematical abilities and the like.
Is sensitive to larger or deeper issues of human concern probably means that they are well read on a particular issue like global warming or systemic racism that ties into deeper understanding of an issue or intensity in an issue.
Shows compassion for others is the only one getting an eye roll from me as a measure of giftedness. All the rest tie into gifted traits pretty easily.
As for leaving comments, the GBRS form was just a form, there was a separate page where they left comments on each section.
I would guess that they will be looking for kids who are strong in all of the academic areas (math, science, social studies, and writing) and that the others are ignored. Although there are plenty of people who used to submit letters of recommendations from music teachers because they showed perseverance and music is tied to mathematical abilities and the like.
Anonymous
10/30/2023 20:32
Subject: What do we think about this new HOPE scale?
Anonymous wrote:I think we will have to wait and see. I hope the teachers took a class on how to fill it out appropriately.
This. How will it be possible to have consistent scoring? Some teachers will be more lenient than others.