Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:49
Subject: Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Culture is cultivated, not taught in schools. Likewise, children have to want to cultivate it or it won't really take.
💯
It comes from the parents/the home/who they see in their homes for dinner parties, meetings, coffees/what you expose them to.
Yes. Explore different public radio programs nationwide through internet TV. Stream documentaries. Make it a point to visit different cities when you can. Send your kid to do a year abroad. Europe is where I learned to be “cultivée.”
Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:48
Subject: Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Please forgive me if this is entirely ridiculous but I have nowhere else to ask and it’s bothering me.
I have to say I am an immigrant, for context. I’ve noticed that it is fairly difficult to “become cultured” here in the US. I don’t mean to criticize, just trying to gauge my observations. My son goes to public school and there is hardly any classics that they read, and it mostly depends on the teacher too. Seeing ballet or even a play that’s not local amateur level is very expensive. Museums are mostly natural history and not art museums, and if it’s art it’s mostly modern art. At least that’s true for where we live, and we have moved away from the DMV.
Anyway, I’ve become a little obsessed with what I call the NYC intellectuals. For me it’s the people from Woody Allen’s earlier movies with their clever puns and references and allusions to great works of art, and also some of the NPR programming like Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me and all the smart people there. I know it’s probably a very limited view
So anyway, my questions are two:
- what is considered cultured, refined, etc in the US?
- can a child who grew up far away from NYC become a true NYC intellectual? Or it’s just something only for 2nd+ Gen New Yorkers?
Again, I apologize for the limitations of my questions, I am trying to get a good understanding of intellectualism and “culturedness” (if that’s even a word) in the US but I don’t see much discussion honestly!
I don’t think that NYC intellectuals are really a thing anymore. We (doctor and journalist) live in NYC, and nowadays money rules - not culture.
What a silly thing to say. OP never said being cultured "rules."
We have many friends who are professors and print journalists in NYC, and we are all just grinding it out. When we get together it’s not like a salon - we just complain about the MTA and rent and stress about (public) middle school and high school admissions.
We of course go to museums and plays, etc, but in my experience there isn’t a vibrant intellectual class n Manhattan or Brooklyn anymore. When I was little they were more apparent, but the quirky intellectuals/ artists been priced out (unless there’s family money).
With the rise in COL since the mid/late 90s or so, the monied class is just far more visible/influential.
Our friends and colleagues do read the New Yorker and go to plays and museums (the Cloisters on a beautiful spring day is transcendental!).
But mostly we have our nose to the grindstone trying to keep up with COL.
And our kids are just like their suburban cousins. The main differences are they seen a lot more broadway shows (they loved Aladdin and thought Hamilton was boring), have been dragged (whining) through a lot more museums, and are not as good at sports.
You’re operating under a logical fallacy here, PP. It certainly sounds like you and your friends aren’t particularly cultured but people who want to be cultured find it easy in NYC, even in 2023.
Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:48
Subject: Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
I’ve known a few “NYC intellectuals”, and they have been some of most helpless, self-insufficient, clueless people you’d ever meet.
Without knowing anything about you OP, I will assert that you are likely already far more interesting than any of them. Continue being who you are. We are not better served as an American culture by having yet another upper west side prognosticator giving us their educated irrelevant opinions of questions no one asked them.
Without knowing anything about you OP, I will assert that you are likely already far more interesting than any of them. Continue being who you are. We are not better served as an American culture by having yet another upper west side prognosticator giving us their educated irrelevant opinions of questions no one asked them.
Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:47
Subject: Re:Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:There's been a fairly significant intellectual shift in American culture that steers away from the idea of "high" art towards a consumer culture. Some parts of that are good as intellectual cultural stuff can get ridiculous. Some parts are bad because populist stuff can just be kitsch, or worse, propaganda that Americans have lost the critical thinking skills to recognize.
One thing that strikes me a lot when I think about this is my grandmother and her wall of Harvard classics, her modern art prints on the wall of her tiny home in central California. In her day there was the sense that culture and art were for the Everyman and were, as you're suggesting "improving." While I think there's a lot of art that was made in the 20th with that rubric that's not good art, the concept itself is one that's important. Art is improving. A society needs common touchstones, common emotional experiences, common metaphors, etc. Without that I worry we're going to turn into a nation of people with long guns in Walmart.
Yes, I very much agree about the consumer culture. And that’s where common touchstones as you called them now come from, and it’s fine. My personal quest is watching key American movies and shows to become familiar with references.
As for “real” or “high” art, I have a feeling it’s always been pretty niche in the US, partly because the pop culture was always readily available.
I think my essential question is: can a parent who is more or less the only cultural beacon around the child (that’s how I feel though I know I am being dramatic here) make their child an intellectual? Does this child even have a chance. Or will the pop culture combined with relative difficulty of consumption of the “real” art do its job?
-OP
I think you’ll have to reframe your idea of an “intellectual” to succeed.
Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:45
Subject: Re:Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
Anonymous wrote:There's been a fairly significant intellectual shift in American culture that steers away from the idea of "high" art towards a consumer culture. Some parts of that are good as intellectual cultural stuff can get ridiculous. Some parts are bad because populist stuff can just be kitsch, or worse, propaganda that Americans have lost the critical thinking skills to recognize.
One thing that strikes me a lot when I think about this is my grandmother and her wall of Harvard classics, her modern art prints on the wall of her tiny home in central California. In her day there was the sense that culture and art were for the Everyman and were, as you're suggesting "improving." While I think there's a lot of art that was made in the 20th with that rubric that's not good art, the concept itself is one that's important. Art is improving. A society needs common touchstones, common emotional experiences, common metaphors, etc. Without that I worry we're going to turn into a nation of people with long guns in Walmart.
Yes, I very much agree about the consumer culture. And that’s where common touchstones as you called them now come from, and it’s fine. My personal quest is watching key American movies and shows to become familiar with references.
As for “real” or “high” art, I have a feeling it’s always been pretty niche in the US, partly because the pop culture was always readily available.
I think my essential question is: can a parent who is more or less the only cultural beacon around the child (that’s how I feel though I know I am being dramatic here) make their child an intellectual? Does this child even have a chance. Or will the pop culture combined with relative difficulty of consumption of the “real” art do its job?
-OP
Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:40
Subject: Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Please forgive me if this is entirely ridiculous but I have nowhere else to ask and it’s bothering me.
I have to say I am an immigrant, for context. I’ve noticed that it is fairly difficult to “become cultured” here in the US. I don’t mean to criticize, just trying to gauge my observations. My son goes to public school and there is hardly any classics that they read, and it mostly depends on the teacher too. Seeing ballet or even a play that’s not local amateur level is very expensive. Museums are mostly natural history and not art museums, and if it’s art it’s mostly modern art. At least that’s true for where we live, and we have moved away from the DMV.
Anyway, I’ve become a little obsessed with what I call the NYC intellectuals. For me it’s the people from Woody Allen’s earlier movies with their clever puns and references and allusions to great works of art, and also some of the NPR programming like Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me and all the smart people there. I know it’s probably a very limited view
So anyway, my questions are two:
- what is considered cultured, refined, etc in the US?
- can a child who grew up far away from NYC become a true NYC intellectual? Or it’s just something only for 2nd+ Gen New Yorkers?
Again, I apologize for the limitations of my questions, I am trying to get a good understanding of intellectualism and “culturedness” (if that’s even a word) in the US but I don’t see much discussion honestly!
I don’t think that NYC intellectuals are really a thing anymore. We (doctor and journalist) live in NYC, and nowadays money rules - not culture.
What a silly thing to say. OP never said being cultured "rules."
We have many friends who are professors and print journalists in NYC, and we are all just grinding it out. When we get together it’s not like a salon - we just complain about the MTA and rent and stress about (public) middle school and high school admissions.
We of course go to museums and plays, etc, but in my experience there isn’t a vibrant intellectual class n Manhattan or Brooklyn anymore. When I was little they were more apparent, but the quirky intellectuals/ artists been priced out (unless there’s family money).
With the rise in COL since the mid/late 90s or so, the monied class is just far more visible/influential.
Our friends and colleagues do read the New Yorker and go to plays and museums (the Cloisters on a beautiful spring day is transcendental!).
But mostly we have our nose to the grindstone trying to keep up with COL.
And our kids are just like their suburban cousins. The main differences are they seen a lot more broadway shows (they loved Aladdin and thought Hamilton was boring), have been dragged (whining) through a lot more museums, and are not as good at sports.
Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:37
Subject: Re:Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
The hallowed arbiters of culture in NYC are making concerted efforts to make their programming more accessible and inclusive for everyone. It’s not some rarified concept only available to the wealthy anymore. The culture has and is continuing to shift.
And what’s wrong with modern art?
And what’s wrong with modern art?
Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:35
Subject: Re:Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
There's been a fairly significant intellectual shift in American culture that steers away from the idea of "high" art towards a consumer culture. Some parts of that are good as intellectual cultural stuff can get ridiculous. Some parts are bad because populist stuff can just be kitsch, or worse, propaganda that Americans have lost the critical thinking skills to recognize.
One thing that strikes me a lot when I think about this is my grandmother and her wall of Harvard classics, her modern art prints on the wall of her tiny home in central California. In her day there was the sense that culture and art were for the Everyman and were, as you're suggesting "improving." While I think there's a lot of art that was made in the 20th with that rubric that's not good art, the concept itself is one that's important. Art is improving. A society needs common touchstones, common emotional experiences, common metaphors, etc. Without that I worry we're going to turn into a nation of people with long guns in Walmart.
One thing that strikes me a lot when I think about this is my grandmother and her wall of Harvard classics, her modern art prints on the wall of her tiny home in central California. In her day there was the sense that culture and art were for the Everyman and were, as you're suggesting "improving." While I think there's a lot of art that was made in the 20th with that rubric that's not good art, the concept itself is one that's important. Art is improving. A society needs common touchstones, common emotional experiences, common metaphors, etc. Without that I worry we're going to turn into a nation of people with long guns in Walmart.
Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:35
Subject: Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
Anonymous wrote:Private clubs with salons to discuss these things.
Agree, start at home: Meal convos
And minimum 1x a month family theater/opera/museum followed by dinner to discuss
great idea about monthly outings. So simple I should have thought about it, but it was helpful to hear it from someone. I’ll just put it on my calendar, maybe once every two months, and it will be easier to implement!
-OP
Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:32
Subject: Re:Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
$$$ and a passport.
Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:31
Subject: Re:Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
Anonymous wrote:I once went to a fancy party in the Hamptons and people there were very “cultured”. The main reason was their professions. There was a journalist who had just returned from a 6 month assignment in Mongolia. There was a professor from Columbia university. There was an art collector from some fancy art house. Etc… these people all had really cool and interesting jobs.
But the thing is… how did they end up in those jobs?
Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:30
Subject: Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Culture is cultivated, not taught in schools. Likewise, children have to want to cultivate it or it won't really take.
Yes! A kid might think something is very cool and want to know more but you won't cultivate fascination and understanding if they find it all "boring".
OP here. This is my worry. I know tons of examples when either only one parent is cultured and the kid takes after the other one, or when the environment is just not conducive.
I think my question is - is it even possible (with two divorced more cultured than average parents, and living in an educated but imho uncultured area) to grow up an intellectual?
How cultured are YoU?
What are you doing at home?
Do you have a family book club/reading list?
I won’t lie, I have a long way to go to become truly cultured
I do what I can at home.
My worry is that I am only one person. He does get some exposure at his dad’s too (we are divorced) but his dad will never as much as even strongly suggest he reads or watches something worthwhile, and I am honestly running out of energy.
DS is a pretty typical 13 yo, luckily he loves to read but his reading choices aren’t exactly intellectual for the most part.
And of course I don’t have American intellectuals flocking to my home on weekends lol
I’d say I am pretty well rounded but it’s hard to be the only person cultivating it in a child!
Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:27
Subject: Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
I grew up in West Texas, went to a flagship TX school for college, went to law school in TX, and had never lived anywhere else but TX until I was 33 years old.
I don't know that I am cultured NYC intellectual, but I can hold my own. No matter where you are in the US you have one of the greatest resources to help you and your child in your quest: a public library. Sure I read some classics in school, but I read an absolute ton of other material as well. And that's where I picked up a lot of references, or I looked them up.
And seek out what is available to you - many towns have community theater, local symphony, wind or brass ensembles. Or the university a few hours away will.
The one major difference between my childhood and now is internet and streaming. I do think it's really hard to shut all that down and use boredom to stimulate curiosity.
I don't know that I am cultured NYC intellectual, but I can hold my own. No matter where you are in the US you have one of the greatest resources to help you and your child in your quest: a public library. Sure I read some classics in school, but I read an absolute ton of other material as well. And that's where I picked up a lot of references, or I looked them up.
And seek out what is available to you - many towns have community theater, local symphony, wind or brass ensembles. Or the university a few hours away will.
The one major difference between my childhood and now is internet and streaming. I do think it's really hard to shut all that down and use boredom to stimulate curiosity.
Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:26
Subject: Re:Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
I once went to a fancy party in the Hamptons and people there were very “cultured”. The main reason was their professions. There was a journalist who had just returned from a 6 month assignment in Mongolia. There was a professor from Columbia university. There was an art collector from some fancy art house. Etc… these people all had really cool and interesting jobs.
Anonymous
10/29/2023 11:25
Subject: Re:Becoming a cultured person, “just like NYC intellectuals”
Anonymous wrote:In private school, they read all of the classics and learn about all the world religions, art history, etc. At least they do at my kids' Jesuit high school.
Being well-educated to me is having knowledge in all areas, I say that as a STEM grad degree/STEM field.
There is a push around here to force STEM and only STEM down kids' throats while forgoing the classics, geography, world religion, ethics, art, etc.
Actually my kid was able to get a taste of both art history and history of religion in public school too.
However geography is lacking so far!