Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 18:54     Subject: Re:AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:AAP is not a gifted program. It is mainly a way for parents with means to get their kids segregated from the poor kids, disguised as a gifted program. (Let’s not pretend these parents aren’t prepping their kids for the two tests which are meant to be taken totally unprepped, or that they’re not “contributing” to their children’s work samples, and when all else fails they’ll pay for and prep their kid for an IQ test…)

The problem is then everyone pretends that all of the kids left behind are getting an adequate and appropriate education. Wrong! The average, above average, and poor gifted kids are being left to flounder jn gen ed which is essentially remedial at this point. But the rich “gifted” kids are at centers so I guess all is well.


This is valid.
And gross.
But also given that it’s the system we walked into (as in it was already operating this way when our kid entered kindergarten), I can tell you that it takes way more courage than I have to be the one to refuse the opportunity to have my kid placed into the “smart” class where 90% of kids in that LIV class have two married college-educated parents at home who expect high grades and good behavior versus taking a stand against the messed up system and declining the opportunity so that my kid can stay in Gen Ed where the ability level of one classroom of third graders can range from barely able to sound out 3-letter words to reading at 6th-grade level, with no fewer than three daily behavior problems ranging from chair-throwing to hitting and cursing. Those poor teachers are completely overwhelmed, and who wouldn’t be???

If it’s going to stop, it’s going yo have to come from the school board. Because parents (myself included) aren’t going to opt their kids out of the chaos if they have the choice to put them into a class that is focused on higher-level instruction that also provides a calmer learning environment.


I mean don't we have a responsibility to get these kids out of this classroom? Since we can't have remedial classes to send them to, we'll just leave them in regular and call it "regular". I went to a massive school. We had tiny special needs classrooms (we were the Down Syndrome center for the county), regular classrooms (that were basically remedial and they were hell on Earth. They burned basically any teacher out), honors, gifted, then IB. We were constantly being reevaluated and you could move up or down based on the class. A lot of the regular kids did drop out or went to school in juvie for parts of the year.

When I moved up into the higher classes, it was life changing. I had never been in an entire class where kids cared about learning and were high achieving. I'm sad my kids will never have that because of disciplinary problems.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 18:53     Subject: Re:AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:AAP is not a gifted program. It is mainly a way for parents with means to get their kids segregated from the poor kids, disguised as a gifted program. (Let’s not pretend these parents aren’t prepping their kids for the two tests which are meant to be taken totally unprepped, or that they’re not “contributing” to their children’s work samples, and when all else fails they’ll pay for and prep their kid for an IQ test…)

The problem is then everyone pretends that all of the kids left behind are getting an adequate and appropriate education. Wrong! The average, above average, and poor gifted kids are being left to flounder jn gen ed which is essentially remedial at this point. But the rich “gifted” kids are at centers so I guess all is well.


This is valid.
And gross.
But also given that it’s the system we walked into (as in it was already operating this way when our kid entered kindergarten), I can tell you that it takes way more courage than I have to be the one to refuse the opportunity to have my kid placed into the “smart” class where 90% of kids in that LIV class have two married college-educated parents at home who expect high grades and good behavior versus taking a stand against the messed up system and declining the opportunity so that my kid can stay in Gen Ed where the ability level of one classroom of third graders can range from barely able to sound out 3-letter words to reading at 6th-grade level, with no fewer than three daily behavior problems ranging from chair-throwing to hitting and cursing. Those poor teachers are completely overwhelmed, and who wouldn’t be???

If it’s going to stop, it’s going yo have to come from the school board. Because parents (myself included) aren’t going to opt their kids out of the chaos if they have the choice to put them into a class that is focused on higher-level instruction that also provides a calmer learning environment.


There is so much wrong with this post and point of view. I don't even want to touch it to point out the problems. Ugh.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 18:39     Subject: Re:AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
Anonymous wrote:Keep AAP but limit it to the top 15% of each schools population. Close the Centers. That way the LIV classroom reflects the top 15% of the kids at that school. The kids who are ahead receive additional challenge. Heck, set it at 20% for each school so it reflects the number of kids in AAP now.


Why would anyone think the top 15% or 20% at each ES or MS is comparable or has similar needs? The only reason to do that is that if you think the AAP curriculum is sufficiently advantageous that such a policy will drive parents to relocate to lower-performing schools to obtain access for their kids (a form of “educational arbitrage”) and if you really believed the program were that special you’d want to make it available to every child equipped to take advantage of it.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 18:31     Subject: Re:AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:AAP is not a gifted program. It is mainly a way for parents with means to get their kids segregated from the poor kids, disguised as a gifted program. (Let’s not pretend these parents aren’t prepping their kids for the two tests which are meant to be taken totally unprepped, or that they’re not “contributing” to their children’s work samples, and when all else fails they’ll pay for and prep their kid for an IQ test…)

The problem is then everyone pretends that all of the kids left behind are getting an adequate and appropriate education. Wrong! The average, above average, and poor gifted kids are being left to flounder jn gen ed which is essentially remedial at this point. But the rich “gifted” kids are at centers so I guess all is well.


This is valid.
And gross.
But also given that it’s the system we walked into (as in it was already operating this way when our kid entered kindergarten), I can tell you that it takes way more courage than I have to be the one to refuse the opportunity to have my kid placed into the “smart” class where 90% of kids in that LIV class have two married college-educated parents at home who expect high grades and good behavior versus taking a stand against the messed up system and declining the opportunity so that my kid can stay in Gen Ed where the ability level of one classroom of third graders can range from barely able to sound out 3-letter words to reading at 6th-grade level, with no fewer than three daily behavior problems ranging from chair-throwing to hitting and cursing. Those poor teachers are completely overwhelmed, and who wouldn’t be???

If it’s going to stop, it’s going yo have to come from the school board. Because parents (myself included) aren’t going to opt their kids out of the chaos if they have the choice to put them into a class that is focused on higher-level instruction that also provides a calmer learning environment.


PP here and I completely agree with you. It’s not the parents’ fault (I didn’t mean to imply that I think they’re terrible people when I said they prep their kids - I just want to see people acknowledge that this is what is happening. Most of these kids aren’t gifted, they‘re bright with highly motivated parents)

But the system is absolutely broken and it is it completely unfair to that large swathe of kids in the middle! No one ever seems to advocate for the average students anymore.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 18:02     Subject: Re:AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
Anonymous wrote:AAP is not a gifted program. It is mainly a way for parents with means to get their kids segregated from the poor kids, disguised as a gifted program. (Let’s not pretend these parents aren’t prepping their kids for the two tests which are meant to be taken totally unprepped, or that they’re not “contributing” to their children’s work samples, and when all else fails they’ll pay for and prep their kid for an IQ test…)

The problem is then everyone pretends that all of the kids left behind are getting an adequate and appropriate education. Wrong! The average, above average, and poor gifted kids are being left to flounder jn gen ed which is essentially remedial at this point. But the rich “gifted” kids are at centers so I guess all is well.


This is valid.
And gross.
But also given that it’s the system we walked into (as in it was already operating this way when our kid entered kindergarten), I can tell you that it takes way more courage than I have to be the one to refuse the opportunity to have my kid placed into the “smart” class where 90% of kids in that LIV class have two married college-educated parents at home who expect high grades and good behavior versus taking a stand against the messed up system and declining the opportunity so that my kid can stay in Gen Ed where the ability level of one classroom of third graders can range from barely able to sound out 3-letter words to reading at 6th-grade level, with no fewer than three daily behavior problems ranging from chair-throwing to hitting and cursing. Those poor teachers are completely overwhelmed, and who wouldn’t be???

If it’s going to stop, it’s going yo have to come from the school board. Because parents (myself included) aren’t going to opt their kids out of the chaos if they have the choice to put them into a class that is focused on higher-level instruction that also provides a calmer learning environment.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 17:48     Subject: Re:AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Keep AAP but limit it to the top 15% of each schools population. Close the Centers. That way the LIV classroom reflects the top 15% of the kids at that school. The kids who are ahead receive additional challenge. Heck, set it at 20% for each school so it reflects the number of kids in AAP now.


Centers are a much better implementation than Local Level IV, which is what you're advocating for.


How many kids end up taking and doing well in AP/IB classes in high school? I am pretty sure that there are a lot more kids in those classes then just the LIV kids. LIV does not lead to kids who are uber advanced and out pacing their peers. LLIV works well for a lot of kids. The notion that Centers are needed for kids to excel is BS.

The parents I know who are obsessed with Centers are the parents who valued a bigger house in a Title 1 school boundary and want their kid at a better school without having to buy a smaller house. They are the same parents who apply for the magnet schools and dual language immersion programs, anything to move their kid out of the school that they bought into.

There is the subset that want the Center so they can show how smart their kid is or because they are obsessed with TJ and see AAP as a step on the path to TJ.


Since we don't live in a Title I school boundary or a TJ mania area, we don't see any of that.

Centers are better for everyone because the AAP kids leave the base schools rather than stay in a single "smart" class making the other students constantly aware of it and the AAP kids themselves get several classes to mingle with rather than being stuck in one class for 4 years.


LOL. Yes, better for the other kids to be constantly aware that the AAP kids are so much better than them that they can’t even be in the same building!! Oh nevermind, the gen ed kids are just a bunch of goldfish - out of sight out of mind, right?


And when people drive by the centers and see their flashy new playground equipment that was purchased by the high-income-earning families whose kids are most often the ones identified as AAP-eligible (due to correlation between family income and standardized test outcomes), will you be bitter that the base schools are no longer able to raise the same kind of funding for similar equipment due to fcps siphoning off the wealthier families from the potential giving pool?

Our system is broken.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 17:42     Subject: AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
Anonymous wrote:I found this article so moving:

https://tcf.org/content/commentary/gifted-talented-programs-not-path-equity/

And the arguments made are so compelling.

Don’t you agree this also applies to the AAP program? Should we find ways to phase it out, and offer the same opportunities to every learner in FCPS ?


I don’t know about “moving” but it’s certainly depressing.
But, certainly those who buy into equity as a societal goal would have to agree that curriculum tailored to individual learning needs (especially when targeting accelerated learners) has got to go eventually.
Next up will be music programs. (Is it fair that the ones who play in the top school bands and orchestras are the students who can afford to pay for private instruction? Well then we better not make placement in a top band or orchestra dependent upon an audition, because some kids have access to instruction that others don’t have and it is t fair.
The last domino to fall will be sports. But I suspect that’s where people will finally draw the line with this nonsense of equity.
I’m all about creating opportunities. But controlling for outcome is insane, as there are so many factors that can go into why/how someone is “successful” in a given area…
Opportunity is just one of those…but natural ability, Drive, dedication and commitment of time to practice your sport/craft/study are all valid factors as well.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 17:30     Subject: AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
I think this thread illustrates exactly why AAP isn’t equitable.

It’s pretty amazing that the school board allows this to persist for such a large chunk of the student population and at the same time talk about equity in everything we do.

I’m ok with a 1% truly gifted high IQ pull out style GT program from the days of old FCPS.

Time for the school board to show some leadership and dismantle AAP.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 17:22     Subject: Re:AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Keep AAP but limit it to the top 15% of each schools population. Close the Centers. That way the LIV classroom reflects the top 15% of the kids at that school. The kids who are ahead receive additional challenge. Heck, set it at 20% for each school so it reflects the number of kids in AAP now.


Centers are a much better implementation than Local Level IV, which is what you're advocating for.


How many kids end up taking and doing well in AP/IB classes in high school? I am pretty sure that there are a lot more kids in those classes then just the LIV kids. LIV does not lead to kids who are uber advanced and out pacing their peers. LLIV works well for a lot of kids. The notion that Centers are needed for kids to excel is BS.

The parents I know who are obsessed with Centers are the parents who valued a bigger house in a Title 1 school boundary and want their kid at a better school without having to buy a smaller house. They are the same parents who apply for the magnet schools and dual language immersion programs, anything to move their kid out of the school that they bought into.

There is the subset that want the Center so they can show how smart their kid is or because they are obsessed with TJ and see AAP as a step on the path to TJ.


Since we don't live in a Title I school boundary or a TJ mania area, we don't see any of that.

Centers are better for everyone because the AAP kids leave the base schools rather than stay in a single "smart" class making the other students constantly aware of it and the AAP kids themselves get several classes to mingle with rather than being stuck in one class for 4 years.


LOL. Yes, better for the other kids to be constantly aware that the AAP kids are so much better than them that they can’t even be in the same building!! Oh nevermind, the gen ed kids are just a bunch of goldfish - out of sight out of mind, right?
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 17:19     Subject: Re:AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Keep AAP but limit it to the top 15% of each schools population. Close the Centers. That way the LIV classroom reflects the top 15% of the kids at that school. The kids who are ahead receive additional challenge. Heck, set it at 20% for each school so it reflects the number of kids in AAP now.


Centers are a much better implementation than Local Level IV, which is what you're advocating for.


How many kids end up taking and doing well in AP/IB classes in high school? I am pretty sure that there are a lot more kids in those classes then just the LIV kids. LIV does not lead to kids who are uber advanced and out pacing their peers. LLIV works well for a lot of kids. The notion that Centers are needed for kids to excel is BS.

The parents I know who are obsessed with Centers are the parents who valued a bigger house in a Title 1 school boundary and want their kid at a better school without having to buy a smaller house. They are the same parents who apply for the magnet schools and dual language immersion programs, anything to move their kid out of the school that they bought into.

There is the subset that want the Center so they can show how smart their kid is or because they are obsessed with TJ and see AAP as a step on the path to TJ.


Since we don't live in a Title I school boundary or a TJ mania area, we don't see any of that.

Centers are better for everyone because the AAP kids leave the base schools rather than stay in a single "smart" class making the other students constantly aware of it and the AAP kids themselves get several classes to mingle with rather than being stuck in one class for 4 years.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 17:12     Subject: Re:AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
AAP is not a gifted program. It is mainly a way for parents with means to get their kids segregated from the poor kids, disguised as a gifted program. (Let’s not pretend these parents aren’t prepping their kids for the two tests which are meant to be taken totally unprepped, or that they’re not “contributing” to their children’s work samples, and when all else fails they’ll pay for and prep their kid for an IQ test…)

The problem is then everyone pretends that all of the kids left behind are getting an adequate and appropriate education. Wrong! The average, above average, and poor gifted kids are being left to flounder jn gen ed which is essentially remedial at this point. But the rich “gifted” kids are at centers so I guess all is well.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 17:11     Subject: Re:AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Keep AAP but limit it to the top 15% of each schools population. Close the Centers. That way the LIV classroom reflects the top 15% of the kids at that school. The kids who are ahead receive additional challenge. Heck, set it at 20% for each school so it reflects the number of kids in AAP now.


Centers are a much better implementation than Local Level IV, which is what you're advocating for.


How many kids end up taking and doing well in AP/IB classes in high school? I am pretty sure that there are a lot more kids in those classes then just the LIV kids. LIV does not lead to kids who are uber advanced and out pacing their peers. LLIV works well for a lot of kids. The notion that Centers are needed for kids to excel is BS.

The parents I know who are obsessed with Centers are the parents who valued a bigger house in a Title 1 school boundary and want their kid at a better school without having to buy a smaller house. They are the same parents who apply for the magnet schools and dual language immersion programs, anything to move their kid out of the school that they bought into.

There is the subset that want the Center so they can show how smart their kid is or because they are obsessed with TJ and see AAP as a step on the path to TJ.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 16:55     Subject: AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
Anonymous wrote:I found this article so moving:

https://tcf.org/content/commentary/gifted-talented-programs-not-path-equity/

And the arguments made are so compelling.

Don’t you agree this also applies to the AAP program? Should we find ways to phase it out, and offer the same opportunities to every learner in FCPS ?


No because every learner should not get the same opportunities. AAP is for kids that can do APP. There should be other levels to catch the kids where they are. You do not help by eliminating.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 16:49     Subject: Re:AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
Anonymous wrote:Keep AAP but limit it to the top 15% of each schools population. Close the Centers. That way the LIV classroom reflects the top 15% of the kids at that school. The kids who are ahead receive additional challenge. Heck, set it at 20% for each school so it reflects the number of kids in AAP now.


That just hurts talented/capable kids in less talented/capable neighborhoods, pushing people to waste money on real estate to help their kids education.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2023 16:42     Subject: Re:AAP should be eliminated as it’s not the path to equity
Anonymous wrote:Keep AAP but limit it to the top 15% of each schools population. Close the Centers. That way the LIV classroom reflects the top 15% of the kids at that school. The kids who are ahead receive additional challenge. Heck, set it at 20% for each school so it reflects the number of kids in AAP now.


Centers are a much better implementation than Local Level IV, which is what you're advocating for.