Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:33     Subject: What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
Anonymous wrote:I've written hundreds of letters of recommendations for students over my career. With very few exceptions, I show the student the letter in advance and ask if there is anything they would like changed. And with very few exceptions, the students have been delighted with the letter as written.

The reason that I show them the letter is to make sure that I have adequately covered what they believe needed to be covered in the letter. A couple of times I have left something, like a sport or club. I've never been asked to make real substantive changes.

Waiving the right to read the letter has nothing to do with the teacher giving the student the opportunity to read the letter in advance.


If you let students read the letter, then how are they waiting their right to read it?
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:32     Subject: What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
Anonymous wrote:Wonderful opportunity to tailor the letter to say exactly what the student wants it to say. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth and look at this as a huge bonus. There are many sample letters of recommendation online that can help your child craft an amazing rec letter.


Agree. Teacher probably has an intense workload. It’s not as if teacher said no.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:29     Subject: What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
I've written hundreds of letters of recommendations for students over my career. With very few exceptions, I show the student the letter in advance and ask if there is anything they would like changed. And with very few exceptions, the students have been delighted with the letter as written.

The reason that I show them the letter is to make sure that I have adequately covered what they believe needed to be covered in the letter. A couple of times I have left something, like a sport or club. I've never been asked to make real substantive changes.

Waiving the right to read the letter has nothing to do with the teacher giving the student the opportunity to read the letter in advance.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:29     Subject: What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have worked both as a core subject teacher and specials teacher and done many trainings offered by colleges on how to write letters that are useful to committees (letters from core subject and specials subject teachers or activity leaders serve different purposes). Literally in every training I have done, they suggest getting a draft from the students, a bullet list of what is important to the student, have a discussion of with the student of what they are looking for, etc. They dismiss impersonal - this is a good student letters. With over 150 students each year, I cannot best assist a student without them driving the process.


Our instructions are the student to write the brag sheet and an email requesting a letter of recommendation in such a style that a teacher can essentially "lift" entire paragraphs and paste into their recommendation if they so choose. So, it is not writing your own LOR...but it certainly is reducing the burden on the teacher in terms of both filling them in on your "back story" and what they need to do to make it their own. I guess this is a hybrid approach.


OP here and I have no problem with an approach like this and I think if the student had been asked for this, she'd have no problem whatsoever. She is not trying to make too much work for the teacher and was nervous to ask, specifically because she is very conscientious person who doesn't like to burden others. So she would have jumped at the chance to ease the teacher's burden.

But that's not what the teacher asked. The teacher said, "How about you write it and I will just sign it?" It was incredibly dismissive.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:28     Subject: What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I am the immediate pp before your last post. I understand why your kid is hurt, but that is the least of it. I have worked in college admissions and there is a strong preference for letters whose students have waived the right to see them. The understanding is that they are more honest and reliable. Assuming that your child intends to be truthful, your child can not waive the right. For some admissions people, that discredits the letter.


OP here and I wasn't even aware of that and now I'm even more annoyed. Yes, I think the child would be truthful in that situation. So now even the letter she has been told to write herself will be discredited because they'll know she's seen it?

I get teachers are overburdened but there are likely no more than 1 or 2 other students at the school who have taken as many classes or done as much EC work with this particular teacher. Are teachers so overburden that writing a letter of recommendation for their 2nd or 3rd best and most committed student is too much to ask? This student is just trying to get into college.


There may be another 2 dozen who have had that teacher and don't have any teacher who they've don ECs with to ask.


Sure, and I can see asking those students to write the recommendation. But THIS student has a special relationship with this teacher that very few other students have, and it's based on the effort and commitment the student has put into the teacher's class and after school activities. Shouldn't that be worth something?

Is that from the student's perspective, or are you getting that from the teacher?
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:27     Subject: What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I am the immediate pp before your last post. I understand why your kid is hurt, but that is the least of it. I have worked in college admissions and there is a strong preference for letters whose students have waived the right to see them. The understanding is that they are more honest and reliable. Assuming that your child intends to be truthful, your child can not waive the right. For some admissions people, that discredits the letter.


OP here and I wasn't even aware of that and now I'm even more annoyed. Yes, I think the child would be truthful in that situation. So now even the letter she has been told to write herself will be discredited because they'll know she's seen it?

I get teachers are overburdened but there are likely no more than 1 or 2 other students at the school who have taken as many classes or done as much EC work with this particular teacher. Are teachers so overburden that writing a letter of recommendation for their 2nd or 3rd best and most committed student is too much to ask? This student is just trying to get into college.


There may be another 2 dozen who have had that teacher and don't have any teacher who they've don ECs with to ask.


Sure, and I can see asking those students to write the recommendation. But THIS student has a special relationship with this teacher that very few other students have, and it's based on the effort and commitment the student has put into the teacher's class and after school activities. Shouldn't that be worth something?
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:26     Subject: What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
Anonymous wrote:I have worked both as a core subject teacher and specials teacher and done many trainings offered by colleges on how to write letters that are useful to committees (letters from core subject and specials subject teachers or activity leaders serve different purposes). Literally in every training I have done, they suggest getting a draft from the students, a bullet list of what is important to the student, have a discussion of with the student of what they are looking for, etc. They dismiss impersonal - this is a good student letters. With over 150 students each year, I cannot best assist a student without them driving the process.


Our instructions are the student to write the brag sheet and an email requesting a letter of recommendation in such a style that a teacher can essentially "lift" entire paragraphs and paste into their recommendation if they so choose. So, it is not writing your own LOR...but it certainly is reducing the burden on the teacher in terms of both filling them in on your "back story" and what they need to do to make it their own. I guess this is a hybrid approach.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:26     Subject: Re:What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My understanding is that a student waives the right to see the letter. They don't promise never to read the letter if someone shows it to them.

Yes. Checking the "waives the right" box just means that if someone says no you can't look at it, you have to accept that. But that doesn't mean the person can't share it. I'm a HS teacher and my students almost always check the box that they waive their right to view it, but I tend to show it to them anyway to make sure it includes everything they think is important and everything they want included.


If the kid gets in, they can get their entire admissions file from the school via FERPA if they decide to attend
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:24     Subject: What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
Anonymous wrote:As a teacher who does this here is my rationale:

First of all, I never send a letter verbatim that is written by a student. The tone must be mine. But I often do not know what gifts or challenges a student has or has dealt with beyond what I see in their work or in class. And this can be very boring and impersonal to write.

Most public HS teachers have hundreds of students at one time, so developing a personal relationship with all of them is impossible. The last thing you want is a teacher who writes 3 forms of a letter for average student, good student and struggling student and just changes the name of student and school to which the letter is going. You risk this by providing no insight into yourself when you ask for a recommendation.

A recommendation should highlight more than what is obvious - just saying someone is a good focused student who does well and participates in class will get you no further than what a report card is telling an admissions committee. Getting personal input helps the teacher craft a more personalized and individualized letter.

Often schools require each student to write a brag sheet to aid teachers with this process. i have had parents do it too. These are not letters, but do provide guidance and insight into a student.

If a student is willing to do a letter, it is a sign to me they are taking their college or job prospects seriously and personally. A student who cannot engage with those they are enlisting to support them may not have the energy needed for the programs to which they are applying. This tells me something about who wants to get in more. Who is most committed.

Lastly there is a lot I don't know about my students. Why do they sleep in class (taking care of siblings, sick parents), why are they over or under organized (everything from undiagnosed ADHD, which based on their description of their behavior might give me insights they do not have - I cannot stay focused, I like to listen to music while I work) why is their work always on time or late, yet they do well? Or they may have a dream I know nothing about that explains why they are pursuing certain programs. (I want to record music so I am focused on computer science as our school does not have a solid music program, or I love nature but we have no environmental studies class, but I work at a community garden for my volunteer hours and am an avid hiker.)



But when you ask students to write their own letters, how do they know you want them to include personal details about their lives that you don't already know. First off, a student might be embarrassed to reveal family troubles or to special needs. Second, if someone asked me to write a recommendation on their behalf, I'd only focus on things that person already knew about me because otherwise it wouldn't ring true. Like if I'd overcome a personal challenge in order to get an A in their class, but the teacher didn't know about that challenge, I wouldn't include it in the letter because... the teacher doesn't know about it.

It sounds it would be better to have a questionnaire you give students who ask for recommendations where you ask them directly for some of these personal details (especially stuff about their future goals, why they are applying to that school, why their experience in your class was good preparation for that or inspired a specific interest, etc.). That would make it clear what you are looking for.

But just telling a student to write their own recommendation doesn't make them suddenly understand any of what you just explained, and could come off as you saying "I don't like you well enough to write a good recommendations, but I get you need one, so you write it and I'll sign it."

These are 17 yr old kids who have never applied to college before, so it might be useful to be a bit more explicit with them. You are assuming they understand it from your perspective but of course they do not. And while some students will have savvy and supportive parents who can guide them, others won't, and those are actually the ones most in need of encouragement and guidance from you.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:22     Subject: Re:What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
Anonymous wrote:My understanding is that a student waives the right to see the letter. They don't promise never to read the letter if someone shows it to them.

Yes. Checking the "waives the right" box just means that if someone says no you can't look at it, you have to accept that. But that doesn't mean the person can't share it. I'm a HS teacher and my students almost always check the box that they waive their right to view it, but I tend to show it to them anyway to make sure it includes everything they think is important and everything they want included.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:22     Subject: What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
I have worked both as a core subject teacher and specials teacher and done many trainings offered by colleges on how to write letters that are useful to committees (letters from core subject and specials subject teachers or activity leaders serve different purposes). Literally in every training I have done, they suggest getting a draft from the students, a bullet list of what is important to the student, have a discussion of with the student of what they are looking for, etc. They dismiss impersonal - this is a good student letters. With over 150 students each year, I cannot best assist a student without them driving the process.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:17     Subject: What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I am the immediate pp before your last post. I understand why your kid is hurt, but that is the least of it. I have worked in college admissions and there is a strong preference for letters whose students have waived the right to see them. The understanding is that they are more honest and reliable. Assuming that your child intends to be truthful, your child can not waive the right. For some admissions people, that discredits the letter.


OP here and I wasn't even aware of that and now I'm even more annoyed. Yes, I think the child would be truthful in that situation. So now even the letter she has been told to write herself will be discredited because they'll know she's seen it?

I get teachers are overburdened but there are likely no more than 1 or 2 other students at the school who have taken as many classes or done as much EC work with this particular teacher. Are teachers so overburden that writing a letter of recommendation for their 2nd or 3rd best and most committed student is too much to ask? This student is just trying to get into college.


There may be another 2 dozen who have had that teacher and don't have any teacher who they've don ECs with to ask.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:14     Subject: What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
Just write it. Teacher have 150+ students in HS and don't have a lot of time for the extras.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:13     Subject: What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
Anonymous wrote:I think this is a gift.

I'd give your brag sheet + some anecdotes to a trusted friend who writes well and have them write it, so it's not in your DC's voice. Then, you can make edits if needed.


I see nothing wrong with a teacher asking for info from the student. My son's physics teacher asked him for some bullet point items that my son wanted included including info on outside activities and interests that the teacher could weave into the narrative for an early decision application. Though we never saw the actual recommendation, my son was accepted ED to his top choice and we are sure the teacher's recommendation absolutely helped.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 11:13     Subject: What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?
As a teacher who does this here is my rationale:

First of all, I never send a letter verbatim that is written by a student. The tone must be mine. But I often do not know what gifts or challenges a student has or has dealt with beyond what I see in their work or in class. And this can be very boring and impersonal to write.

Most public HS teachers have hundreds of students at one time, so developing a personal relationship with all of them is impossible. The last thing you want is a teacher who writes 3 forms of a letter for average student, good student and struggling student and just changes the name of student and school to which the letter is going. You risk this by providing no insight into yourself when you ask for a recommendation.

A recommendation should highlight more than what is obvious - just saying someone is a good focused student who does well and participates in class will get you no further than what a report card is telling an admissions committee. Getting personal input helps the teacher craft a more personalized and individualized letter.

Often schools require each student to write a brag sheet to aid teachers with this process. i have had parents do it too. These are not letters, but do provide guidance and insight into a student.

If a student is willing to do a letter, it is a sign to me they are taking their college or job prospects seriously and personally. A student who cannot engage with those they are enlisting to support them may not have the energy needed for the programs to which they are applying. This tells me something about who wants to get in more. Who is most committed.

Lastly there is a lot I don't know about my students. Why do they sleep in class (taking care of siblings, sick parents), why are they over or under organized (everything from undiagnosed ADHD, which based on their description of their behavior might give me insights they do not have - I cannot stay focused, I like to listen to music while I work) why is their work always on time or late, yet they do well? Or they may have a dream I know nothing about that explains why they are pursuing certain programs. (I want to record music so I am focused on computer science as our school does not have a solid music program, or I love nature but we have no environmental studies class, but I work at a community garden for my volunteer hours and am an avid hiker.)