Anonymous
09/19/2023 13:20
Subject: how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
Team rep here.
The coaches make the line and we check it like other posters have said. There are times that the coach is debating between two swimmers and will ask for input or perspective. The rep will give it.
As for crazy stuff happening to make the ladder not that clean for seeding -- yes. It happens. The coaches actually make notes about it.
The coaches make the line and we check it like other posters have said. There are times that the coach is debating between two swimmers and will ask for input or perspective. The rep will give it.
As for crazy stuff happening to make the ladder not that clean for seeding -- yes. It happens. The coaches actually make notes about it.
Anonymous
09/19/2023 10:28
Subject: how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
Anonymous wrote:Never, unless we catch an obvious error.
+1
The coaches make the line up we just check for errors like a kid accidentally being left off despite being available or there revers a kid on there who isn't available or a kids in too many events.
Anonymous
09/19/2023 08:48
Subject: Re:how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
MCSL. Our coach is kind of a lineup savant at using best times and selecting races. Nothing opaque or political about it. Coach and A rep seem to be perfectly in sync and trust each other. Coach is completely willing to discuss reasoning with parents at any random moment at all. I've never heard any real complaints about lineups and we've been with the team for years.
Anonymous
09/19/2023 07:13
Subject: how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:NVSL should require teams to provide the meet sheet with seed times. Instead they are so closely guarded not even all the offices can get a sheet with times. Ridiculous and definitely gives those with something to hide and who are not seeding meets based on the ladder the ability to do so.
Why? It is not a club meet, these are summer meets with human timers. Let me give you some scenarios that we have seen in our 20 years of NVSL.
Scenario #1:
Swimmer is in B meet and supposed to swim Fly. They swim free and for some reason no one decided to DQ them. It was witnessed, but now they have an incredibly fast time entered in the system. BTW, they are not legal in fly. So now the coaches and reps are stuck with this BS time.
Scenario #2:
Swimmer is swimming in a B meet and it is late and they are swimming breast. They have never been able to do it legally for the whole distance. It is dark because you are at a crappy pool with crappy lights and no one can see a damn thing. The S&T for the home team just want to go home and don't DQ. Another time the coaches are stuck with KNOW is not a good time.
Scenario #3:
A meet and you have an opposing team that are a little wonky on the timers. Visually you can see that one lane is touching the wall by sometimes as much as two strokes ahead yet still losing on the watch. Meanwhile a second lane kid who has never beat the first lane kid has a better time. But in reality the first lane kid did. What do you now?
Scenario #4:
You have a swimmer whose best time was at Time Trials (good time) and they have never repeated that time again and generally are considerably slower at every meet since. Meanwhile you have swimmers that are speeding up and beating this swimmer at A meets but because of this anomalous time this swimmer keeps getting seeded. The coaches are giving up points by continually swimming this swimmer when they have other faster kids (but for this first time).
In a club meet it doesn't matter, but when you are trying to score points it can make a huge difference to factor in all the weird crap that happens when parents are timing and judging. I have literally heard parents that were S&T say that they have no clue what they are doing. And then watch them make ZERO calls during a meet when some pretty obvious DQs are happening. Summer officials are not Club officials that get HOURS of training and shadowing, etc. These are parents that watched a video.
I’m a long time swim parent and have never seen scenarios 1-3. A kid swimming freestyle instead of fly and not getting DQ, come on. A kid that’s terrible at breaststroke doing it illegally faster than a good legal breaststroker? Multiple timers in a lane being off by 2 strokes and magically giving a slow kid an A meet time? This isn’t real.
Are you a ref or a stroke and turn? I have seen some crazy stuff.
Anonymous
09/19/2023 07:12
Subject: how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:NVSL should require teams to provide the meet sheet with seed times. Instead they are so closely guarded not even all the offices can get a sheet with times. Ridiculous and definitely gives those with something to hide and who are not seeding meets based on the ladder the ability to do so.
Why? It is not a club meet, these are summer meets with human timers. Let me give you some scenarios that we have seen in our 20 years of NVSL.
Scenario #1:
Swimmer is in B meet and supposed to swim Fly. They swim free and for some reason no one decided to DQ them. It was witnessed, but now they have an incredibly fast time entered in the system. BTW, they are not legal in fly. So now the coaches and reps are stuck with this BS time.
Scenario #2:
Swimmer is swimming in a B meet and it is late and they are swimming breast. They have never been able to do it legally for the whole distance. It is dark because you are at a crappy pool with crappy lights and no one can see a damn thing. The S&T for the home team just want to go home and don't DQ. Another time the coaches are stuck with KNOW is not a good time.
Scenario #3:
A meet and you have an opposing team that are a little wonky on the timers. Visually you can see that one lane is touching the wall by sometimes as much as two strokes ahead yet still losing on the watch. Meanwhile a second lane kid who has never beat the first lane kid has a better time. But in reality the first lane kid did. What do you now?
Scenario #4:
You have a swimmer whose best time was at Time Trials (good time) and they have never repeated that time again and generally are considerably slower at every meet since. Meanwhile you have swimmers that are speeding up and beating this swimmer at A meets but because of this anomalous time this swimmer keeps getting seeded. The coaches are giving up points by continually swimming this swimmer when they have other faster kids (but for this first time).
In a club meet it doesn't matter, but when you are trying to score points it can make a huge difference to factor in all the weird crap that happens when parents are timing and judging. I have literally heard parents that were S&T say that they have no clue what they are doing. And then watch them make ZERO calls during a meet when some pretty obvious DQs are happening. Summer officials are not Club officials that get HOURS of training and shadowing, etc. These are parents that watched a video.
I’m a long time swim parent and have never seen scenarios 1-3. A kid swimming freestyle instead of fly and not getting DQ, come on. A kid that’s terrible at breaststroke doing it illegally faster than a good legal breaststroker? Multiple timers in a lane being off by 2 strokes and magically giving a slow kid an A meet time? This isn’t real.
I have seen a lot of crazy stuff happen at B meets. It gets late and the parents stop paying attention. Not the poster with examples but at B meets I have seen a lot of not legal get times. That is a problem. And, I have definitely seen timer shenanigans at A meets against certain teams and their bat sh*t crazy parents. We have often said it would be better to have timer boards.
Also don't forget you have the top division teams (a few) that make concerted efforts to cheat or push the rules to make them more competitive for All Star Relay Carnival and their A meets. They pull stunts.
Anonymous
09/18/2023 20:39
Subject: how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:NVSL should require teams to provide the meet sheet with seed times. Instead they are so closely guarded not even all the offices can get a sheet with times. Ridiculous and definitely gives those with something to hide and who are not seeding meets based on the ladder the ability to do so.
Why? It is not a club meet, these are summer meets with human timers. Let me give you some scenarios that we have seen in our 20 years of NVSL.
Scenario #1:
Swimmer is in B meet and supposed to swim Fly. They swim free and for some reason no one decided to DQ them. It was witnessed, but now they have an incredibly fast time entered in the system. BTW, they are not legal in fly. So now the coaches and reps are stuck with this BS time.
Scenario #2:
Swimmer is swimming in a B meet and it is late and they are swimming breast. They have never been able to do it legally for the whole distance. It is dark because you are at a crappy pool with crappy lights and no one can see a damn thing. The S&T for the home team just want to go home and don't DQ. Another time the coaches are stuck with KNOW is not a good time.
Scenario #3:
A meet and you have an opposing team that are a little wonky on the timers. Visually you can see that one lane is touching the wall by sometimes as much as two strokes ahead yet still losing on the watch. Meanwhile a second lane kid who has never beat the first lane kid has a better time. But in reality the first lane kid did. What do you now?
Scenario #4:
You have a swimmer whose best time was at Time Trials (good time) and they have never repeated that time again and generally are considerably slower at every meet since. Meanwhile you have swimmers that are speeding up and beating this swimmer at A meets but because of this anomalous time this swimmer keeps getting seeded. The coaches are giving up points by continually swimming this swimmer when they have other faster kids (but for this first time).
In a club meet it doesn't matter, but when you are trying to score points it can make a huge difference to factor in all the weird crap that happens when parents are timing and judging. I have literally heard parents that were S&T say that they have no clue what they are doing. And then watch them make ZERO calls during a meet when some pretty obvious DQs are happening. Summer officials are not Club officials that get HOURS of training and shadowing, etc. These are parents that watched a video.
I’m a long time swim parent and have never seen scenarios 1-3. A kid swimming freestyle instead of fly and not getting DQ, come on. A kid that’s terrible at breaststroke doing it illegally faster than a good legal breaststroker? Multiple timers in a lane being off by 2 strokes and magically giving a slow kid an A meet time? This isn’t real.
Anonymous
09/18/2023 20:34
Subject: how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
Anonymous wrote:I find it odd that teams don't publish the ladder. Our team puts it out every week.
And our team reps don't override the coach unless an error.
Our team rep wouldn't do that. She's all about control.
Anonymous
09/18/2023 20:29
Subject: Re:how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
MCSL- Coaches only
Anonymous
09/18/2023 19:50
Subject: how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
Our NVSL team lives by the ladder. Published on team website twice a week - after the A meet and B meets (as well as time trials).
Our coach does the seeding; however that said the team reps have made strategic suggestions.
Our coach does the seeding; however that said the team reps have made strategic suggestions.
Anonymous
09/18/2023 14:08
Subject: how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
Anonymous wrote:NVSL should require teams to provide the meet sheet with seed times. Instead they are so closely guarded not even all the offices can get a sheet with times. Ridiculous and definitely gives those with something to hide and who are not seeding meets based on the ladder the ability to do so.
Why? It is not a club meet, these are summer meets with human timers. Let me give you some scenarios that we have seen in our 20 years of NVSL.
Scenario #1:
Swimmer is in B meet and supposed to swim Fly. They swim free and for some reason no one decided to DQ them. It was witnessed, but now they have an incredibly fast time entered in the system. BTW, they are not legal in fly. So now the coaches and reps are stuck with this BS time.
Scenario #2:
Swimmer is swimming in a B meet and it is late and they are swimming breast. They have never been able to do it legally for the whole distance. It is dark because you are at a crappy pool with crappy lights and no one can see a damn thing. The S&T for the home team just want to go home and don't DQ. Another time the coaches are stuck with KNOW is not a good time.
Scenario #3:
A meet and you have an opposing team that are a little wonky on the timers. Visually you can see that one lane is touching the wall by sometimes as much as two strokes ahead yet still losing on the watch. Meanwhile a second lane kid who has never beat the first lane kid has a better time. But in reality the first lane kid did. What do you now?
Scenario #4:
You have a swimmer whose best time was at Time Trials (good time) and they have never repeated that time again and generally are considerably slower at every meet since. Meanwhile you have swimmers that are speeding up and beating this swimmer at A meets but because of this anomalous time this swimmer keeps getting seeded. The coaches are giving up points by continually swimming this swimmer when they have other faster kids (but for this first time).
In a club meet it doesn't matter, but when you are trying to score points it can make a huge difference to factor in all the weird crap that happens when parents are timing and judging. I have literally heard parents that were S&T say that they have no clue what they are doing. And then watch them make ZERO calls during a meet when some pretty obvious DQs are happening. Summer officials are not Club officials that get HOURS of training and shadowing, etc. These are parents that watched a video.
Anonymous
09/18/2023 14:01
Subject: how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
I find it odd that teams don't publish the ladder. Our team puts it out every week.
And our team reps don't override the coach unless an error.
And our team reps don't override the coach unless an error.
Anonymous
09/18/2023 13:41
Subject: how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
Our team reps are involved in seeding and can override the coaches. Not the best way to do things.
Anonymous
09/17/2023 16:55
Subject: how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
NVSL should require teams to provide the meet sheet with seed times. Instead they are so closely guarded not even all the offices can get a sheet with times. Ridiculous and definitely gives those with something to hide and who are not seeding meets based on the ladder the ability to do so.
Anonymous
09/17/2023 16:48
Subject: Re:how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
Our team reps check the lineup for any glaring errors but the coaches do the lineup.
For example last year the coaches put kid a in an event who was lower on the ladder than kid b. We double checked with the coach if that was deliberate or an oversight. It was an oversight.
Another time they had accidentally put a kid in three events when the nvsl limit is 2. Reps aren’t making the decisions, we are the second set of eyes looking for any obvious errors before the entries are exchanged.
For example last year the coaches put kid a in an event who was lower on the ladder than kid b. We double checked with the coach if that was deliberate or an oversight. It was an oversight.
Another time they had accidentally put a kid in three events when the nvsl limit is 2. Reps aren’t making the decisions, we are the second set of eyes looking for any obvious errors before the entries are exchanged.
Anonymous
09/17/2023 16:44
Subject: how often do team reps override coach picks for summer swim A meets?
Hence, the thread a while back about NVSL and the “rule” about meet sheets and seeded times. It should all be transparent but it isn’t since the coach or team rep can hide behind “we can’t publish the ladder” or share the times.