Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 21:46     Subject: More skills based grading at madison hs
Anonymous wrote:Glad you have the neurotypical kid who can adapt pp. Keep up the good work. Those of use parenting smart kids with learning differences don't feel quite as easy about the change.

The communication from teachers during bts night was extremely crisp: tests only. There may be some exceptions in some classes, but that is not what I heard from the teachers i listened to.

Because you seem unfamiliar with learning differences, schools are under no legal obligation to honor an accommodation request (504). While an IEP is binding, it only covers the need for special instruction, rather than anything about in-class evaluation and grading. Test accommodations apply to state mandated tests, and not in-classroom test-based grading. Bottom line, the school is still expected to evaluate kids on an inclusive and fair basis that works for a diverse range of kids in attendance.

Under this policy, kids with learning differences do not have a recourse. If the math, chem, history, even english teacher decides -- as they have -- that tests are the "culminating learning experience", then these kids will fall through the cracks. I can fill my kid with dyslexia and adhd with all the ritalin their dr will allow -- there will be mistakes made in a 1.5h test with 60-100 multi-choice problem taken in their 5th hour of attendance. They simply cannot keep the focus that long. When those 100 problems are divided along the 5 or so skills, solid chances are that skills tested at the end of the period will consistently be weak -- often triggering a failing grade. Without a chance to make over the skills over a few testing periods, even if the teachers rotate the order of skills assessed from one test to the next, the failing grade remains.

I'm not talking about beating your kid into princeton through A+s on all-AP classes. I'm talking about a fair B in their non-HN class, that reflects their solid understanding of the material and skills developed, rather than their inability to focus for 1.5h on a test and making careless mistakes along the way.

This policy is detrimental to both their mental well being and unfair to their grades. More importantly, this is not implemented as a "skills-based" grade. And, it is the type of grading that the world has been moving away from.

And yes, I am posting here, to better figure out if the community understands the more minute implications of the policy. There was a long conversation about this in May, and many good points were surfaced. But back then, people were only looking at the skills-based policy from last years, which was uniquely able to equalize achievement for non-typical kids. The new one reuses the name but is a 180 change from last year.


My child has had both a 504 and an IEP and I can assure you, testing accommodations most definitely are on there and have to be followed, regardless if it’s a classroom test or a state test. On an IEP, you can get reduced number of questions as well. This would be helpful for ADHD kids. If your child has dyslexia and ADHD, he/she most definitely should get an IEP or at the very least a 504. Accommodations on the 504 are there to help your child. Please tell me you have a plan in place.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 20:08     Subject: Re:More skills based grading at madison hs
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is how Madison explains it. It is insanity! However, it seems more like grade inflation than a detriment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNvfPlr3YKI&t=715s


It is grade inflation for the students who would previously had failed. But it is also grade deflation at the top, which teachers confirmed at back to school night. Much harder to get an A.


How?

This example would have been B C B A vs what it was B B A A.

A good student at the top would just have A A A A or maybe 3 Bs and an A or what this example kid got 2 Bs and 2 As. How does that deflate a top student? It doesn't. You can only go up, not down. Trick is to start strong and keep your grades up, which is what every kid has to do. Madison is actually making things easier because the kid doesn't have to improve on content (re-assess), just do better on next content. Seems a poster child for grade inflation.


Except, as my DCs teachers have all explained, students should not expect to get As early on. That would indicate mastery level, which students should not be attaining at the start of the course (the rationale being that if they were, they should be in a higher level class).

Last year, I was told by a teacher directly that the course average, across all sections/teachers for that class, was a C at the end of first quarter and the department felt that was appropriate under SBG. It made improvement to A level both difficult and stressful, and resulted in odd, unexplained, last minute grade changes in SIS (I assume to account for “reassessment”?) at the end of 4th quarter.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 19:56     Subject: More skills based grading at madison hs
Anonymous wrote:Regarding the comment that IEP testing accommodations only apply to state testing, you are incorrect.

There is no such thing as a SOL-only accommodation. All accommodations for testing on SOLs are also supposed to be done in the classroom as a classroom testing accommodation. And the accommodations that look a little different between the standardized test and the classroom test have the classroom procedures spelled out very specifically.


+1 OP is ignorant.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 18:36     Subject: More skills based grading at madison hs
Regarding the comment that IEP testing accommodations only apply to state testing, you are incorrect.

There is no such thing as a SOL-only accommodation. All accommodations for testing on SOLs are also supposed to be done in the classroom as a classroom testing accommodation. And the accommodations that look a little different between the standardized test and the classroom test have the classroom procedures spelled out very specifically.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 17:56     Subject: More skills based grading at madison hs
My oldest went to Madison last year and is in a private school this year. My next kid is in 8th grade. Did they say if it will be gone next year? My interpretation was that all FCPS schools had to implement regular grading again next year. Or is Madison still running this disastrous pilot in the future?
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 17:10     Subject: More skills based grading at madison hs
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:From square #1, OP is misrepresenting the policy. But I get it, OP...you are against it and want to persuade others to be against it as well.

For everyone else, you might read the details straight from Madison's website.

Misrepresentation #1 is that nothing but tests make us the grade.

From the published policy: "Assessment is defined as a culminating learning experience (i.e. project, presentation, exhibition, test, essay, etc.). "

So that tells you something about OP's rant.

Here's the full policy: https://madisonhs.fcps.edu/academics/grading-and-reporting

I think my kid will adapt to this just fine. He's smart enough to receive the message that he won't do well in AP physics or Precalc/Trig if he doesn't do the practice work. If this message isn't getting through to your kid, I'd work on that.





Yes, we know from your many past posts that your son will be fine.


Then you probably also know that OP's daughter is freaking out and doesn't have good discussions in class because she's with the losers who don't do any of the practice, and her high school grades are going to hell in a hand basket, and her kid won't get into the college of her dreams, and she's even thinking about putting her kid in private instead because she can't handle SBG!

So. Much. Drama. over something that she hasn't been able to change and something that isn't going to change no matter how many times she posts on DCUM about it. Learn to accept what you cannot change.... it's good for your mental health. As far as I know, no one has been seriously damaged by SBG. There are bigger battles to wage, imo. It just seems so very silly to keep harping on this and claiming that it is all doom and destruction.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 14:39     Subject: More skills based grading at madison hs
I rewatched the video -- very helpful, although I'd still disagree with the naming convention The above seems to be correct.

So... probably last year, kids who were slow to start but reached an adequate level were the winners. Kids who had the good habit of starting fast had to keep running fast or else their previous work would not count. Unless they could wind up for the last few tests again, their early work was discarded.

This year, neither completely loses the history of grades, and you can no longer cram for the last few tests and erase a year of laziness or distraction. On the other hand, a good start is still rewarded.

Both types of learners (procastinator/ poor adapter or short stamina kids) often come with learning differences. I would say that last year would have advantaged kids who do poorly on tests, but learned the content well, more likely the slow starters. This year, I'm not sure either kid has an advantage. Definitely good for reasonable students who have solid transition skills and good stamina throughout the year. The uneven kids... eh, they will struggle, and the grade will have to be a constant reminder.

I can see where this is likely a more accurate image of the full year, rather than a snapshot of where the students arrived by the end of the school year. That's why the skills based grading label still does not seem accurate.

Also, last year, kids were graded on full test content. This year, tests will be structured to reflect the 5 core skills for each class. So the string above would apply to eack skill, before averaging across all skills . Can't imagine it's much fun for the teachers...
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 14:05     Subject: More skills based grading at madison hs
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:From back to school night, the new skills-based grading policy is back, this time a tad draconian:
- only tests matter, no grade assigned for other class activities (essays, projects, homework, class participation). There may be some exceptions for their project-based cohort classes, not sure.
- no retakes.
- each class has a group of about 5 skills, and a current skill test may replace the grade in the immediately previous skill test if it is better.
- no more exceptions and accommodations for kids that have a 504/IEP plan incompatible with test taking

While last year's skills based implementation looked at where the kid was at the end of the year (averaged latest 3 skill-based tests), this year the entire year's average is taken, with the possibility to replace a grade once. Kids could recover nicely if they put in the work last year. Not so this year.

Importantly, teachers no longer have the option to use alternative ways to test skills -- only tests matter.

Thoughts?

Personally, I feel the new policy is no longer a skills-based grading policy, but a test-based one. Skills-based would mean reporting on where the student is at the time of the report, as measured holistically across the entirety of their work. This is not it.

Test-based means many snapshots of test performance throughout the school year, without any other input, averaged over the year. Works well for good test takers, leaves behind kids with attention deficit, dyslexia, anxiety, or simply poor test takers, at a time when even colleges and educators are moving away from test-based evaluations. I'm not sure why this seems like a good idea.

Any other FCPS HS schools following a similar policy? Marshall? Oakton?


Absolutely false. Your post should be taken down.


To correct what OP wrote, "only assessments count."
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 14:02     Subject: More skills based grading at madison hs
Anonymous wrote:
Original grade, no remakes:
FCDBCBABCFBCAA=2.43
Last year:

FCDBCBABCFBCAA ->Avg(CAA)= 3.33

This year:
FCDBCBABCFBCAA -> Avg(CCBBBBABCBBAAA) = 3.07

For every test better than the previous one, keep the current score and replace the previous one with the current score

Is that what they plan to do?


I honestly could not tell you. I did not understand it. Hopefully someone will be able to explain. I wonder if it also varies by class.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 14:02     Subject: More skills based grading at madison hs
Anonymous wrote:From square #1, OP is misrepresenting the policy. But I get it, OP...you are against it and want to persuade others to be against it as well.

For everyone else, you might read the details straight from Madison's website.

Misrepresentation #1 is that nothing but tests make us the grade.

From the published policy: "Assessment is defined as a culminating learning experience (i.e. project, presentation, exhibition, test, essay, etc.). "

So that tells you something about OP's rant.

Here's the full policy: https://madisonhs.fcps.edu/academics/grading-and-reporting

I think my kid will adapt to this just fine. He's smart enough to receive the message that he won't do well in AP physics or Precalc/Trig if he doesn't do the practice work. If this message isn't getting through to your kid, I'd work on that.





Yes, we know from your many past posts that your son will be fine.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 13:54     Subject: Re:More skills based grading at madison hs
Anonymous wrote:eh. Seems like grade inflation to me. A kid just gets an A in March despite earning a B in March, simply because they got an A in May.


So you're arguing with those who are telling you that it raises the floor and lowers the ceiling - instead of being happy that your DC's school doesn't have SBG?

Count your blessings.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 13:54     Subject: Re:More skills based grading at madison hs
Anonymous wrote:eh. Seems like grade inflation to me. A kid just gets an A in March despite earning a B in March, simply because they got an A in May.


You aren’t wrong, I’m just saying that it is both grade inflation and deflation at the same time. The teachers said as much during back to school night and this was what happened last year.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 13:53     Subject: More skills based grading at madison hs

Original grade, no remakes:
FCDBCBABCFBCAA=2.43
Last year:

FCDBCBABCFBCAA ->Avg(CAA)= 3.33

This year:
FCDBCBABCFBCAA -> Avg(CCBBBBABCBBAAA) = 3.07

For every test better than the previous one, keep the current score and replace the previous one with the current score

Is that what they plan to do?
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 13:49     Subject: Re:More skills based grading at madison hs
eh. Seems like grade inflation to me. A kid just gets an A in March despite earning a B in March, simply because they got an A in May.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 13:45     Subject: Re:More skills based grading at madison hs
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is how Madison explains it. It is insanity! However, it seems more like grade inflation than a detriment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNvfPlr3YKI&t=715s


It is grade inflation for the students who would previously had failed. But it is also grade deflation at the top, which teachers confirmed at back to school night. Much harder to get an A.


How?

This example would have been B C B A vs what it was B B A A.

A good student at the top would just have A A A A or maybe 3 Bs and an A or what this example kid got 2 Bs and 2 As. How does that deflate a top student? It doesn't. You can only go up, not down. Trick is to start strong and keep your grades up, which is what every kid has to do. Madison is actually making things easier because the kid doesn't have to improve on content (re-assess), just do better on next content. Seems a poster child for grade inflation.


Iit is grade deflation because there are fewer assessments in general and the scale is from 0 to 4. I’m not sure why you are disputing this, the research and material behind it shows that it pushes kids toward the middle from both directions to improve equity. This is the whole point of skills based grading by the folks who created it. Other threads contain links to the research on it. It is a worthy goal. But not fair to implement in some Fcps schools and not others.