Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience top team rosters are filled mostly with outside players. Even with better kids on lower teams. There is no pathway for upward mobility. I agree with D1 mom above, find a team that works for your child.

PP, this is exactly what I was referring to....outside players, b team kids are better, etc; simply not true. You probably dont want to out yourself, but im guessing your dc got passed up by an outside player and you think he/she should have been on top team. I guarantee if you asked around the parent group, they would have had a different opinion. Did your kid get passed up each year by these outside players? Did your kis guest and train with the top team regularly. Could you make an honest assessment of your kids ability?

I’m not the PP, I’m the PP whose kid is playing college and who wrote about the toxic nature of the club system. But I’m sorry, but this flat-out does not match with my experience.

Here is what I would say: there are kids who get to and flourish in college because of the club system. These are the kids who are identified early, nourished by the system, preferred by coaches, etc. Sometimes their parents are much like the PP and believe in the club system, particularly at the ECNL and MLSNext levels. For some of the parents (not saying this is PP), their egos depend on believing club soccer is a true meritocracy where the best excel. To be fair, their kids have a very good experience with the system and trust it. They should trust it: they benefit, and when it comes to college, the club and coach advocates for them.

But there is also a sizeable group of kids who get to and flourish in college despite the club system. These kids are the one who maybe have to fight for play time over the years, who are tracked into lower teams at the younger years and have to switch clubs to get up a level, who get benched, who aren’t the coach favorites, who get yelled at more, who are the target of the coach ire if they lose. Etc. These kids hustle on their own to get their college spots (because their coaches minimally help, preferring to help their favorites). They have to debate whether and/or when they share college offer information with the club because they can’t trust the club and/or coach.

The thing is, college coaches know this about club soccer. Some college coaches refuse to even talk with club coaches, because they don’t trust them. So that second group, they can and do get on to college teams. Coaches in college know how the US club system works more than anyone.

I’ve had kids in both groups. I will say this: when your kid is in the first group, you want to believe the club system is equitable. When your kid is in the second group, you know it’s not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience top team rosters are filled mostly with outside players. Even with better kids on lower teams. There is no pathway for upward mobility. I agree with D1 mom above, find a team that works for your child.

PP, this is exactly what I was referring to....outside players, b team kids are better, etc; simply not true. You probably dont want to out yourself, but im guessing your dc got passed up by an outside player and you think he/she should have been on top team. I guarantee if you asked around the parent group, they would have had a different opinion. Did your kid get passed up each year by these outside players? Did your kis guest and train with the top team regularly. Could you make an honest assessment of your kids ability?

I have multiple kids on top teams and have been on the soccer scene a long time.

Hence the words "in my experience".

Not yours.

Stop guessing.

Anonymous wrote:In my experience top team rosters are filled mostly with outside players. Even with better kids on lower teams. There is no pathway for upward mobility. I agree with D1 mom above, find a team that works for your child.

PP, this is exactly what I was referring to....outside players, b team kids are better, etc; simply not true. You probably dont want to out yourself, but im guessing your dc got passed up by an outside player and you think he/she should have been on top team. I guarantee if you asked around the parent group, they would have had a different opinion. Did your kid get passed up each year by these outside players? Did your kis guest and train with the top team regularly. Could you make an honest assessment of your kids ability?

Almost every year, one kid has moved down and 1-2 kids have moved up.

In my experience top team rosters are filled mostly with outside players. Even with better kids on lower teams. There is no pathway for upward mobility. I agree with D1 mom above, find a team that works for your child.

Anonymous wrote:It happens in the older ages when you’re not getting playing time since it’s not guaranteed.

I think the marketplace is a good thing in this case. If you don’t like it - feel your DCs aren’t being served then go.

My issue is with large clubs - most of the brand names you know and love not giving a pathway to the top team…there literally should be a way for every player (if they do the work) to make top team. This is not the case - except maybe one. Arlington. They supposedly have one night a week where whole club works on core skills - same field and players role through ‘stations’:shooting, passing, dribbling.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid — now playing college in a good conference — was moved down multiple times in his club career. For context, at one point he was on the fourth level team.

Clubs are generally toxic places and movement/retention is often unrelated to skill.

+1 million
2 boys playing D1 that constantly for d@ked around in club and high school. The politics and favoritism are astounding. Absolutely toxic.

Thankfully, many college coaches don’t play that game.

Yup.

We view my kid as having made it to his college team despite club soccer, not because of it. The toxicity—something we saw across multiple clubs, not just one—is astonishing. I do think that not trusting the clubs was an excellent decision in hindsight.

OP, trust your instincts. If you don’t feel the move was made for the right reasons, it’s time to switch clubs.

Can ppl give examples of the toxicity at clubs? I’m assuming that kids aren’t really promoted or demoted based on their skills? What else?

Oh, man, where to start. But first, I want to make it clear that demotion and promotion is sometimes based on skill. It is not the case that it’s not. But the problem is this: on a top team there are generally a few kids who truly stand out. There are sometimes a few clearly struggling too, though in my experience with top teams that’s sometimes not because of skill but because they are terrified of the coach, who targets them if they make a mistake. The rest are in the middle. So, sometimes the demotion/promotion is based on skill, often it’s not. But, some examples of toxicity I’ve seen:

- Tolerating and not commenting/screaming at mistakes from some kids while screaming at others for the same or very similar mistakes.
- Allowing team parents to sit on the bench with the team during games and interfere/gossip.
- Pitting kids against each other and not stopping kids from screaming at each other in games; coaches encouraging vile behavior on the field between teammates. I’m sorry, but no 13-year-old should be allowed to scream “why weren’t you there, you f***ing idiot” on the field with no coach consequences.
— Teaching a selfish kind of play because you are judged every week on whether you can play and that’s partially a stats thing (mostly an ECNL/MLSNext issue).
— Coaches putting kids they didn’t like in positions they don’t usually play in college showcases so that the kids didn’t look as good as their favored kids. For instance, putting a right winger in at left back for the college showcase.
— Over-rostering teams to collect the higher fees for top-level teams when the club knows those kids will never see the field.
— Discouraging creativity in learning players because the coaches/clubs make them so terrified to make a mistake that they will never take a risk. For instance, yelling at kids who challenged players for not releasing the ball fast enough (we left one club over this; my kid needed to learn to challenge, but the top team was filled with kids who kicked the ball away as soon as an opposing player got within five meters because the coach got angry if they didn’t).

I could go on with so much more but this is already too long. Also, as a point of reference I have multiple kids who have played club in various sports. I think soccer is more toxic than any of the others, and I had a kid who did gymnastics (second most toxic IME). I also am reasonably likely to have another college athlete (still in HS) on a good college team, in a different sport. After all of this, I don’t think the US will ever improve at soccer so long as MLSNext and ECNL rule the pipeline. It’s not a system designed to nurture the best prospects and it doesn’t. I say this as a parent of a kid who had multiple good offers for college teams recently (after the transfer portal change), so in theory someone who externally is probably seen as a success of the club system.

It happens in the older ages when you’re not getting playing time since it’s not guaranteed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid — now playing college in a good conference — was moved down multiple times in his club career. For context, at one point he was on the fourth level team.

Clubs are generally toxic places and movement/retention is often unrelated to skill.

+1 million
2 boys playing D1 that constantly for d@ked around in club and high school. The politics and favoritism are astounding. Absolutely toxic.

Thankfully, many college coaches don’t play that game.

Yup.

We view my kid as having made it to his college team despite club soccer, not because of it. The toxicity—something we saw across multiple clubs, not just one—is astonishing. I do think that not trusting the clubs was an excellent decision in hindsight.

OP, trust your instincts. If you don’t feel the move was made for the right reasons, it’s time to switch clubs.

Can ppl give examples of the toxicity at clubs? I’m assuming that kids aren’t really promoted or demoted based on their skills? What else?

I have a different perspective. From what I have seen, the only players that get moved down to the B team are the ones that are truly struggling on the A team and it shows on the field and ultimately with playing time. Unfortunately, most of those parents are bitter about the demotion and claim toxicity or politics and demotion is not skill based. A few parents realize that playing 15 minutes a game is probably not the best spot for their kid and a change to the B team is actually a good thing which will help their kid develop and where their kid will actually have more fun. The reality is teams are always looking to add players and that means as you add you are going to subtract. Now sometimes those added may ultimately not turn out to be better and that does happen, but the difference is usually marginal. B team parents always think their kid is better than x on the A team. Again for bottom 4 on A team, that may be the case, may be, but it's subjective and really will not make an impact on team performance either way. Trust me if your kid is a superstar on the B team, they will get looks with the A team and more than likely get to guest and train with A team and ultimately may move up. Do you not think the A team coach does not want to field the most talented team, do you not think that if they could add an impact player they would?? But they also are not spending a ton of time figuring out if I replace my 16th 17th 18th player with this one, that will impact the team, they just are not.

Sorry for the rant but tired of parents complaining that their kid didnt make the A team because, insert any # of BS reasons, but not because of their skill level. Then we hear all the stories about how, B team player now plays D1, or I took my kid to another club and made A team. Those are true statements but still doesnt mean your kid should have been on A team at original club. One clubs A team does not equal another clubs A team.

+1. I’ve seen a lot (double digits) of kids get moved down at our big club (5 teams at uLittle). It is always glaringly obvious, and my kid was included the one time she got moved down. The move (B down to C) wound up being great for her, and now she starts on the A team.

Unfortunately, we need even more of this. On our current 11v11 roster, there are 2 obvious moves that need to happen, and inexplicably didn’t for the fall. I believe one is due to a sibling being a top player and not wanting to alienate the family. But the girl sitting on the bench and then looking lost for 15 minutes when she comes in is not helping anybody.

I’ve only seen this happen once, and the kid was noticeably less skilled than the rest of the team (great kid, and a leader on the team regardless because of his sportsmanship).

Moving down was a better fit and allowed this player to shine, rather than stand out for negative reasons. Parents were fine with the switch.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid — now playing college in a good conference — was moved down multiple times in his club career. For context, at one point he was on the fourth level team.

Clubs are generally toxic places and movement/retention is often unrelated to skill.

+1 million
2 boys playing D1 that constantly for d@ked around in club and high school. The politics and favoritism are astounding. Absolutely toxic.

Thankfully, many college coaches don’t play that game.

Yup.

We view my kid as having made it to his college team despite club soccer, not because of it. The toxicity—something we saw across multiple clubs, not just one—is astonishing. I do think that not trusting the clubs was an excellent decision in hindsight.

OP, trust your instincts. If you don’t feel the move was made for the right reasons, it’s time to switch clubs.

Can ppl give examples of the toxicity at clubs? I’m assuming that kids aren’t really promoted or demoted based on their skills? What else?

I have a different perspective. From what I have seen, the only players that get moved down to the B team are the ones that are truly struggling on the A team and it shows on the field and ultimately with playing time. Unfortunately, most of those parents are bitter about the demotion and claim toxicity or politics and demotion is not skill based. A few parents realize that playing 15 minutes a game is probably not the best spot for their kid and a change to the B team is actually a good thing which will help their kid develop and where their kid will actually have more fun. The reality is teams are always looking to add players and that means as you add you are going to subtract. Now sometimes those added may ultimately not turn out to be better and that does happen, but the difference is usually marginal. B team parents always think their kid is better than x on the A team. Again for bottom 4 on A team, that may be the case, may be, but it's subjective and really will not make an impact on team performance either way. Trust me if your kid is a superstar on the B team, they will get looks with the A team and more than likely get to guest and train with A team and ultimately may move up. Do you not think the A team coach does not want to field the most talented team, do you not think that if they could add an impact player they would?? But they also are not spending a ton of time figuring out if I replace my 16th 17th 18th player with this one, that will impact the team, they just are not.

Sorry for the rant but tired of parents complaining that their kid didnt make the A team because, insert any # of BS reasons, but not because of their skill level. Then we hear all the stories about how, B team player now plays D1, or I took my kid to another club and made A team. Those are true statements but still doesnt mean your kid should have been on A team at original club. One clubs A team does not equal another clubs A team.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid — now playing college in a good conference — was moved down multiple times in his club career. For context, at one point he was on the fourth level team.

Clubs are generally toxic places and movement/retention is often unrelated to skill.

+1 million
2 boys playing D1 that constantly for d@ked around in club and high school. The politics and favoritism are astounding. Absolutely toxic.

Thankfully, many college coaches don’t play that game.

Yup.

We view my kid as having made it to his college team despite club soccer, not because of it. The toxicity—something we saw across multiple clubs, not just one—is astonishing. I do think that not trusting the clubs was an excellent decision in hindsight.

OP, trust your instincts. If you don’t feel the move was made for the right reasons, it’s time to switch clubs.

Can ppl give examples of the toxicity at clubs? I’m assuming that kids aren’t really promoted or demoted based on their skills? What else?

Anonymous wrote:It’s very hard to shake the B team status even when moved up. Even when DS earned a starting position on the A team, the coach still said evaluated him compared to other B team players. And yes, we moved him to another Club. After 2 years of being rostered on the A team, there is no reason to still treat him as a B team player. It was like he needed to keep reminding him of that for some reason. Maybe the coach thought that was motivating. It was not.

That is a common occurrence.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid — now playing college in a good conference — was moved down multiple times in his club career. For context, at one point he was on the fourth level team.

Clubs are generally toxic places and movement/retention is often unrelated to skill.

+1 million
2 boys playing D1 that constantly for d@ked around in club and high school. The politics and favoritism are astounding. Absolutely toxic.

Thankfully, many college coaches don’t play that game.

Yup.

We view my kid as having made it to his college team despite club soccer, not because of it. The toxicity—something we saw across multiple clubs, not just one—is astonishing. I do think that not trusting the clubs was an excellent decision in hindsight.

OP, trust your instincts. If you don’t feel the move was made for the right reasons, it’s time to switch clubs.

It’s very hard to shake the B team status even when moved up. Even when DS earned a starting position on the A team, the coach still said evaluated him compared to other B team players. And yes, we moved him to another Club. After 2 years of being rostered on the A team, there is no reason to still treat him as a B team player. It was like he needed to keep reminding him of that for some reason. Maybe the coach thought that was motivating. It was not.