Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to first ask yourself what constitutes a challenging novel and Why? You clearly have a problem with what they would choose to read, Why? And then what is the purpose of the reading? Are you trying to get them consume information, learn about a specific topic, or read for enjoyment.

Also reading the Lighting Thief and Hunger Games in third or fourth grade doesn’t mean actual literary analysis was done of the novels at that time.

I'd like them to analyze and understand complex plots. I'd like their vocabulary to improve. I'd like their own writing to improve. I'd like for them to think.

Sounds like you want a tutor.

NP — you realize that’s what kids are supposed to learn in school, right?

If you want more than schools are teaching, you can change schools or supplement.

If you have the money, enroll them in the Aplus Learning Center GT program. This program initially was started to serve GT students who did not get placement in the magnet programs because mcps decided that they had a "cohort" in the home school. The English curriculum has been put together by a very respected and beloved (early retirement) Humanities teacher who was in the ms magnet program.

https://www.apluslearninginc.com/gt-program

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to first ask yourself what constitutes a challenging novel and Why? You clearly have a problem with what they would choose to read, Why? And then what is the purpose of the reading? Are you trying to get them consume information, learn about a specific topic, or read for enjoyment.

Also reading the Lighting Thief and Hunger Games in third or fourth grade doesn’t mean actual literary analysis was done of the novels at that time.

I'd like them to analyze and understand complex plots. I'd like their vocabulary to improve. I'd like their own writing to improve. I'd like for them to think.

Sounds like you want a tutor.

NP — you realize that’s what kids are supposed to learn in school, right?

. You realize this is MS and not HS. Also these are preteens/teens and it’s summer. Just because they would rather do other things right now doesn’t mean they are incapable of analyzing a text. Nor does it mean they won’t consume more books and text as adults.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to first ask yourself what constitutes a challenging novel and Why? You clearly have a problem with what they would choose to read, Why? And then what is the purpose of the reading? Are you trying to get them consume information, learn about a specific topic, or read for enjoyment.

Also reading the Lighting Thief and Hunger Games in third or fourth grade doesn’t mean actual literary analysis was done of the novels at that time.

I'd like them to analyze and understand complex plots. I'd like their vocabulary to improve. I'd like their own writing to improve. I'd like for them to think.

Sounds like you want a tutor.

NP — you realize that’s what kids are supposed to learn in school, right?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to first ask yourself what constitutes a challenging novel and Why? You clearly have a problem with what they would choose to read, Why? And then what is the purpose of the reading? Are you trying to get them consume information, learn about a specific topic, or read for enjoyment.

Also reading the Lighting Thief and Hunger Games in third or fourth grade doesn’t mean actual literary analysis was done of the novels at that time.

I'd like them to analyze and understand complex plots. I'd like their vocabulary to improve. I'd like their own writing to improve. I'd like for them to think.

Sounds like you want a tutor.

It doesn’t sound like this is an area of interest for your kids at this time. They don’t have to be interested in the same things you are. I recommend letting them use their summer breaks to pursue and enjoy things that appeal to them. They have plenty of time to ramp up intensity in this area if they develop motivation in that direction.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to first ask yourself what constitutes a challenging novel and Why? You clearly have a problem with what they would choose to read, Why? And then what is the purpose of the reading? Are you trying to get them consume information, learn about a specific topic, or read for enjoyment.

Also reading the Lighting Thief and Hunger Games in third or fourth grade doesn’t mean actual literary analysis was done of the novels at that time.

I'd like them to analyze and understand complex plots. I'd like their vocabulary to improve. I'd like their own writing to improve. I'd like for them to think.

Giving them a book to read is not going to grow them in these areas. Yes, their vocabulary will improve. They will absorb more complex, interesting writing. But being able to produce it is another thing. For analysis and understanding, you'll need someone to guide them through the text. You'll also need someone to point out what constitutes good writing and why. It would also be helpful to be able to discuss the text with peers. They'll have to consider other peoples viewpoints as well as be able to point to specific evidence to support their thoughts.

Are you a teacher? You sound like one. Public middle school teachers are horrible at teaching students how to analyze text.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to first ask yourself what constitutes a challenging novel and Why? You clearly have a problem with what they would choose to read, Why? And then what is the purpose of the reading? Are you trying to get them consume information, learn about a specific topic, or read for enjoyment.

Also reading the Lighting Thief and Hunger Games in third or fourth grade doesn’t mean actual literary analysis was done of the novels at that time.

I'd like them to analyze and understand complex plots. I'd like their vocabulary to improve. I'd like their own writing to improve. I'd like for them to think.

Giving them a book to read is not going to grow them in these areas. Yes, their vocabulary will improve. They will absorb more complex, interesting writing. But being able to produce it is another thing. For analysis and understanding, you'll need someone to guide them through the text. You'll also need someone to point out what constitutes good writing and why. It would also be helpful to be able to discuss the text with peers. They'll have to consider other peoples viewpoints as well as be able to point to specific evidence to support their thoughts.

+1. Take them to the library or bookstore or online site and let them choose the books they want to read. You can mandate a required amount of reading per week (pages or time) and monitor that if you wish. Another option is to come up with a family read aloud, read to them and then discuss the book. Discuss current events.

If you want to work on vocabulary get a work or SAT flash card deck or even a Root Word workbook.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to first ask yourself what constitutes a challenging novel and Why? You clearly have a problem with what they would choose to read, Why? And then what is the purpose of the reading? Are you trying to get them consume information, learn about a specific topic, or read for enjoyment.

Also reading the Lighting Thief and Hunger Games in third or fourth grade doesn’t mean actual literary analysis was done of the novels at that time.

I'd like them to analyze and understand complex plots. I'd like their vocabulary to improve. I'd like their own writing to improve. I'd like for them to think.

I mean your kids will hate you if you push this on them--- if you want them to truly love reading, encourage any kind of books. If you think their writing should improve, how about a creative or other writing class?

Such a false narrative. Kids (like the PP above) often choose the easiest way to do something. "Any" kind of books do not help kids progress, as the OP explained.

OP - Since it's summer and it is better to make the learning fun, choose a topic that really interests your child and then look for "Unit Studies" that involve other activities in addition to reading... crafts, cooking, science experiments, etc. Maybe even add a family "read-aloud" to get people excited about the topic. Plan a field trip to something in the book or something related to the author. Have discussions each night at dinner about the books in the unit (and you need to read those too in order to lead the discussion [also have family members take turns leading the discussion]).

Also consider private school or homeschool. I am an AP Lang teacher and there is even a growing movement among those teachers to assign graphic novels and to allow the kids to use AI to draft essays (which they would then "edit" themselves). Things are going downhill fast.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Hunger Games is structurally brilliant and worth studying to identify the tools a good writer uses.

Graphic novels can have complex plots, and both graphic novels and audio books can be subjected to the same literary analysis as text books. Maybe start there.

Also, if audio books work, consider if your kid may have a visual or processing issue with text.

There are a bunch of book recap podcasts, many of which get into analysis. The specific ones I listen to are explicit so maybe those aren't ideal for MS but finding a podcast on a "classic" should be do-able. You could do a read-along or read-after.

Can you expand upon this? I'd be interested to discuss that with kids. - NP

I'm the first PP. There is nothing wasted in the Hunger Games narrative: every scene has a job. And the structure is classic, see these links for a detailed explanation:

https://www.writingasasecondcareer.com/hunger-games/

http://storyfix.com/the-hunger-games-beat-sheet

I was speaking of story structure and not political commentary or historical allusions, but of course those are present too. If nothing else, you could have a kid look up every Roman name in the book.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to first ask yourself what constitutes a challenging novel and Why? You clearly have a problem with what they would choose to read, Why? And then what is the purpose of the reading? Are you trying to get them consume information, learn about a specific topic, or read for enjoyment.

Also reading the Lighting Thief and Hunger Games in third or fourth grade doesn’t mean actual literary analysis was done of the novels at that time.

I'd like them to analyze and understand complex plots. I'd like their vocabulary to improve. I'd like their own writing to improve. I'd like for them to think.

Giving them a book to read is not going to grow them in these areas. Yes, their vocabulary will improve. They will absorb more complex, interesting writing. But being able to produce it is another thing. For analysis and understanding, you'll need someone to guide them through the text. You'll also need someone to point out what constitutes good writing and why. It would also be helpful to be able to discuss the text with peers. They'll have to consider other peoples viewpoints as well as be able to point to specific evidence to support their thoughts.

well exactly! what would you suggest I do? I can't afford to put them into private school for one class (honestly we are happy with the rest of the MS curriculum, just not English). FWIW, we are in a low FARMS area where there are plenty of good students. The issue is that the school has decided to only offer 'Advanced English' to everyone - but it's clearly not advanced because not everyone can handle 'advanced' work and therefore they need to lower the standards for everyone.

And yes, we know tons of parents who are supplementing with private tutors to improve their reading/writing skills. I don't have a problem with the $$ - it's the time. My kids play sports and are also into theatre - they are going to balk at having to do tutoring for a few afternoons a week when it would be much more efficient to read/learn in school itself.

NP. I don't know if you see any of their writing at school, but when my kids were in ES, I did see their writing. This was before everything was on chromebooks, though.

I would read the papers after the teacher graded them. The paper was full of grammatical errors and bad sentence structures (run on sentences, disorganized, etc). But the teacher did not correct any of those errors.

I would then make them rewrite the paragraphs that had most of the issues. They hated it. But, it improved their writing, and now that they are in HS, they even acknowledged how that helped, and then of course they grumble how they hated it when I made them do it.

Our ES teacher rarely gave anything back to us and kept most of the work.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to first ask yourself what constitutes a challenging novel and Why? You clearly have a problem with what they would choose to read, Why? And then what is the purpose of the reading? Are you trying to get them consume information, learn about a specific topic, or read for enjoyment.

Also reading the Lighting Thief and Hunger Games in third or fourth grade doesn’t mean actual literary analysis was done of the novels at that time.

I'd like them to analyze and understand complex plots. I'd like their vocabulary to improve. I'd like their own writing to improve. I'd like for them to think.

Giving them a book to read is not going to grow them in these areas. Yes, their vocabulary will improve. They will absorb more complex, interesting writing. But being able to produce it is another thing. For analysis and understanding, you'll need someone to guide them through the text. You'll also need someone to point out what constitutes good writing and why. It would also be helpful to be able to discuss the text with peers. They'll have to consider other peoples viewpoints as well as be able to point to specific evidence to support their thoughts.

well exactly! what would you suggest I do? I can't afford to put them into private school for one class (honestly we are happy with the rest of the MS curriculum, just not English). FWIW, we are in a low FARMS area where there are plenty of good students. The issue is that the school has decided to only offer 'Advanced English' to everyone - but it's clearly not advanced because not everyone can handle 'advanced' work and therefore they need to lower the standards for everyone.

And yes, we know tons of parents who are supplementing with private tutors to improve their reading/writing skills. I don't have a problem with the $$ - it's the time. My kids play sports and are also into theatre - they are going to balk at having to do tutoring for a few afternoons a week when it would be much more efficient to read/learn in school itself.

NP. I don't know if you see any of their writing at school, but when my kids were in ES, I did see their writing. This was before everything was on chromebooks, though.

I would read the papers after the teacher graded them. The paper was full of grammatical errors and bad sentence structures (run on sentences, disorganized, etc). But the teacher did not correct any of those errors.

I would then make them rewrite the paragraphs that had most of the issues. They hated it. But, it improved their writing, and now that they are in HS, they even acknowledged how that helped, and then of course they grumble how they hated it when I made them do it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Hunger Games is structurally brilliant and worth studying to identify the tools a good writer uses.

Graphic novels can have complex plots, and both graphic novels and audio books can be subjected to the same literary analysis as text books. Maybe start there.

Also, if audio books work, consider if your kid may have a visual or processing issue with text.

There are a bunch of book recap podcasts, many of which get into analysis. The specific ones I listen to are explicit so maybe those aren't ideal for MS but finding a podcast on a "classic" should be do-able. You could do a read-along or read-after.

Can you expand upon this? I'd be interested to discuss that with kids. - NP

https://www.google.com/search?q=hunger+games+clitersru+criticism

Anonymous wrote:The Hunger Games is structurally brilliant and worth studying to identify the tools a good writer uses.

Graphic novels can have complex plots, and both graphic novels and audio books can be subjected to the same literary analysis as text books. Maybe start there.

Also, if audio books work, consider if your kid may have a visual or processing issue with text.

There are a bunch of book recap podcasts, many of which get into analysis. The specific ones I listen to are explicit so maybe those aren't ideal for MS but finding a podcast on a "classic" should be do-able. You could do a read-along or read-after.

Can you expand upon this? I'd be interested to discuss that with kids. - NP

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to first ask yourself what constitutes a challenging novel and Why? You clearly have a problem with what they would choose to read, Why? And then what is the purpose of the reading? Are you trying to get them consume information, learn about a specific topic, or read for enjoyment.

Also reading the Lighting Thief and Hunger Games in third or fourth grade doesn’t mean actual literary analysis was done of the novels at that time.

I'd like them to analyze and understand complex plots. I'd like their vocabulary to improve. I'd like their own writing to improve. I'd like for them to think.

Giving them a book to read is not going to grow them in these areas. Yes, their vocabulary will improve. They will absorb more complex, interesting writing. But being able to produce it is another thing. For analysis and understanding, you'll need someone to guide them through the text. You'll also need someone to point out what constitutes good writing and why. It would also be helpful to be able to discuss the text with peers. They'll have to consider other peoples viewpoints as well as be able to point to specific evidence to support their thoughts.

well exactly! what would you suggest I do? I can't afford to put them into private school for one class (honestly we are happy with the rest of the MS curriculum, just not English). FWIW, we are in a low FARMS area where there are plenty of good students. The issue is that the school has decided to only offer 'Advanced English' to everyone - but it's clearly not advanced because not everyone can handle 'advanced' work and therefore they need to lower the standards for everyone.

And yes, we know tons of parents who are supplementing with private tutors to improve their reading/writing skills. I don't have a problem with the $$ - it's the time. My kids play sports and are also into theatre - they are going to balk at having to do tutoring for a few afternoons a week when it would be much more efficient to read/learn in school itself.

Will they read plays?