Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

Wtf. Where did you pull this claim out of?

DBT is supposed to be very helpful for people with Borderline Personality Disorder.

Anonymous wrote:OP here

I am probably more the passive codependent type, much to my chagrin — despite being educated and with my own career. I grew up seeing my mother tolerate my father’s physical abuse and though it infuriated me I guess I didn’t have an example of how to set boundaries.

It also has been exhausting to do so in this relationship. And now I know why.

Thanks to all who posted with their experiences. I’m coming to terms with the fact that I need to be open minded and prepare for all possibilities, including that this will end.

Hugs, OP. It is very hard to reach middle age and to be able to see how you have repeated some of the mistakes your own parents made. I'm the child of a narcissistic dad and a codependent mom (who could be borderline, it's hard to say, I'm not a psychiatrist) and I definitely realized in my mid-30s that many of my own relationships choices mirrored some of those dynamics.

It helps that my DH is not a full blown narcissist like my dad (who is truly incapable of empathy or considering the needs, or even really the existence, of people outside of himself). DH has ADHD and has some narcissistic tendencies, but the main issues tend to be high rigidity and some poor communication skills, especially around feelings. But he's actually been open to working on it, and that makes all the difference. He can recognize when he's being unreasonable and will make an effort to be more flexible. He apologizes when his words are hurtful or when his behavior harms me or our DC, and his apologies are genuine and no effort to manipulate or re-start an abuse cycle (this was not always the case but we've come a long way).

I've also had to do a lot of work on my codependency, learning to both recognize my own needs and assert them. Not just with DH but also with DC -- my mom modeled martyrdom my entire childhood and I have to work not to repeat that pattern.

I think the fact that we are both willing to recognize that the way we were taught to behave in relationships didn't work and we want to do better, makes all the difference. Simply being able to admit you need to work on yourself and being willing to make changes for the benefit of your partner and family unit works against NPD and BPD. So it sounds like you are on a better path, whatever the future brings. Good luck.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

Borderlines do often marry narcissists. I’ve seen it in my own family. 30 year marriage that ended in a grey divorce. It is a known classic pairing.

I think this might be a generational thing, because while I can see this in my own parents marriage (boomers, now late 70s) I think it's far less likely to happen to people who are marrying now or have gotten married in the last 10-20 years, because of shifts in opportunities for women and expected relationship dynamics. I think in the "classic" pairing, the man is a narcissist and the woman is the borderline enabler who subsumes her identity to her partner (and before that likely to abusive parents).

People get married later now and women have more options, including to get more education, to work at higher levels, and to postpone marriage and kids, so I think it's more rare for a woman to become an enabler in this "classic" sense. I think this is also why you see more people actually raising these issues in the way OP is -- rather than creating these dysfunctional, codependent marriages that last 40 years unhappily, people who might have become codependent in prior generations are instead saying "no, this is not acceptable to me -- we need therapy and to address these dysfunctional behaviors."

The fact that OP and spouse are in therapy, with a diagnosis, and figuring out how to proceed kind of knocks them out of the "classic narc/borderline" pairing you are talking about. OP might have some codependent tendencies, but the very fact that they are in therapy and working on it indicates that some boundaries have been set and there is self-awareness of issues and a desire to improve. All of that goes against the dynamic you are talking about.

The OP isn’t in therapy, just the spouse. And it seems obvious to me that the OP isn’t using this diagnosis to work on themselves, but to blame their partner for all of the problems in the relationship. That way they DONT have to work on themselves.

I mean, the classic narcissist has low self esteem and is terrified that everyone is going to find out that they aren’t that great. So, they go around preening and telling everyone who will listen how great they are and devalue anyone who says anything different. See Andrew Tate.

Now, the spouse has been diagnosed with BPD, so anything negative they have ever said about the narcissist can be negated, AND they can be blamed for all of the problems in the marriage. Score!

The OP isn’t planning to work on him/herself at all.

OP here

I am probably more the passive codependent type, much to my chagrin — despite being educated and with my own career. I grew up seeing my mother tolerate my father’s physical abuse and though it infuriated me I guess I didn’t have an example of how to set boundaries.

It also has been exhausting to do so in this relationship. And now I know why.

Thanks to all who posted with their experiences. I’m coming to terms with the fact that I need to be open minded and prepare for all possibilities, including that this will end.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

I don’t know what to tell you. Borderline/narcissist is a classic pairing.

This is a good description of why:
https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/01/borderline.html

I am the child of a parent who has BPD or is a narcissist or some combination of them. I can see how a BPD and NPD could be attracted and get together. They are both likely to love bomb and ride high on another person showering them with affection. But it also seems like a relationship doomed to extreme conflict and abuse as while the courtship seems compatible, the long term prospects seem uniquely destructive. As the narcissist withholds/becomes aloof, the BPD starts to lose their GD mind and blow up. God save the children of parents like that. My mom was generous enough to only bring alcoholism into the equation with her remarriage, not another full blown personality disorder.

I am the child of a high-conflict BPD and NPD. I survived my tumultuous and abusive childhood and am thriving with the help of CBT and a lot of work on myself. I have been in a stable marriage for 20+ years and do not exhibit the emotional disregulation of my parents.

However, I do have C-PTSD and I am "triggered" by certain sounds, movements, situations.

It has been my life's work to calm down my central nervous system.

Same! Though my parents didn't have a high conflict marriage. They pushed all conflict onto their children and externalized all their issues by blaming our existence for them. So that was fun!

But yes to C-PTSD and spending a lot of focus on self-regulation. I will say that becoming a parent was both incredibly challenging and also one of the most healing experiences of my life. I can't fix my own childhood but as I parent with emotional regulation, and teach the same to my kid, it's offering me a kind of do-over.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

Borderlines do often marry narcissists. I’ve seen it in my own family. 30 year marriage that ended in a grey divorce. It is a known classic pairing.

I think this might be a generational thing, because while I can see this in my own parents marriage (boomers, now late 70s) I think it's far less likely to happen to people who are marrying now or have gotten married in the last 10-20 years, because of shifts in opportunities for women and expected relationship dynamics. I think in the "classic" pairing, the man is a narcissist and the woman is the borderline enabler who subsumes her identity to her partner (and before that likely to abusive parents).

People get married later now and women have more options, including to get more education, to work at higher levels, and to postpone marriage and kids, so I think it's more rare for a woman to become an enabler in this "classic" sense. I think this is also why you see more people actually raising these issues in the way OP is -- rather than creating these dysfunctional, codependent marriages that last 40 years unhappily, people who might have become codependent in prior generations are instead saying "no, this is not acceptable to me -- we need therapy and to address these dysfunctional behaviors."

The fact that OP and spouse are in therapy, with a diagnosis, and figuring out how to proceed kind of knocks them out of the "classic narc/borderline" pairing you are talking about. OP might have some codependent tendencies, but the very fact that they are in therapy and working on it indicates that some boundaries have been set and there is self-awareness of issues and a desire to improve. All of that goes against the dynamic you are talking about.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

I don’t know what to tell you. Borderline/narcissist is a classic pairing.

This is a good description of why:
https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/01/borderline.html

I am the child of a parent who has BPD or is a narcissist or some combination of them. I can see how a BPD and NPD could be attracted and get together. They are both likely to love bomb and ride high on another person showering them with affection. But it also seems like a relationship doomed to extreme conflict and abuse as while the courtship seems compatible, the long term prospects seem uniquely destructive. As the narcissist withholds/becomes aloof, the BPD starts to lose their GD mind and blow up. God save the children of parents like that. My mom was generous enough to only bring alcoholism into the equation with her remarriage, not another full blown personality disorder.

I am the child of a high-conflict BPD and NPD. I survived my tumultuous and abusive childhood and am thriving with the help of CBT and a lot of work on myself. I have been in a stable marriage for 20+ years and do not exhibit the emotional disregulation of my parents.

However, I do have C-PTSD and I am "triggered" by certain sounds, movements, situations.

It has been my life's work to calm down my central nervous system.

I'm the PP and right there with you! I have also been in a stable marriage for 10 years and appreciate my boring happy life so much. I only got into therapy after the birth of my third kid and it has really changed my life, good luck to you <3, and here's to breaking the chain.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

I don’t know what to tell you. Borderline/narcissist is a classic pairing.

This is a good description of why:
https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/01/borderline.html

I am the child of a parent who has BPD or is a narcissist or some combination of them. I can see how a BPD and NPD could be attracted and get together. They are both likely to love bomb and ride high on another person showering them with affection. But it also seems like a relationship doomed to extreme conflict and abuse as while the courtship seems compatible, the long term prospects seem uniquely destructive. As the narcissist withholds/becomes aloof, the BPD starts to lose their GD mind and blow up. God save the children of parents like that. My mom was generous enough to only bring alcoholism into the equation with her remarriage, not another full blown personality disorder.

I am the child of a high-conflict BPD and NPD. I survived my tumultuous and abusive childhood and am thriving with the help of CBT and a lot of work on myself. I have been in a stable marriage for 20+ years and do not exhibit the emotional disregulation of my parents.

However, I do have C-PTSD and I am "triggered" by certain sounds, movements, situations.

It has been my life's work to calm down my central nervous system.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

What? No. Borderlines typically ARE narcissists.

No. BPD and NPD are two separate cluster B personality disorders that share some overlapping traits.

Many BPDs exhibit narcissistic tendencies but that does not make them narcissists. These are clinical terms, not just descriptors of personality.

BPD and NPD are a classic pairing, and the longer the relationship with the BPD is the more likely fore the partner to be NPD b/c frankly a non-NPD could not handle a BPD for very long. They usually bail, or are bailed on.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

Borderlines do often marry narcissists. I’ve seen it in my own family. 30 year marriage that ended in a grey divorce. It is a known classic pairing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

I don’t know what to tell you. Borderline/narcissist is a classic pairing.

This is a good description of why:
https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/01/borderline.html

I am the child of a parent who has BPD or is a narcissist or some combination of them. I can see how a BPD and NPD could be attracted and get together. They are both likely to love bomb and ride high on another person showering them with affection. But it also seems like a relationship doomed to extreme conflict and abuse as while the courtship seems compatible, the long term prospects seem uniquely destructive. As the narcissist withholds/becomes aloof, the BPD starts to lose their GD mind and blow up. God save the children of parents like that. My mom was generous enough to only bring alcoholism into the equation with her remarriage, not another full blown personality disorder.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

I don’t know what to tell you. Borderline/narcissist is a classic pairing.

This is a good description of why:
https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/01/borderline.html

This is sadly true, and well known to therapists.

My father was a narcissist and my mother was BPD - married 20 years.

OP-- unless your spouse accepts the BPD DX and gets into DBT or some other serious therapy, they will not change. Even though DBT is very effective, many borderlines just will not accept responsibility for their lives and want to remain a victim. Outcome without intense therapy is not good.

Anonymous wrote:Therapist thinks spouse may have it. Has anyone survived a marriage with this? We have been together 15+ years so even though it explains a lot it’s still a shock. My mind is whirling.

Nope. That’s generally not going to end well. Ask me how I know.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who your spouse is hasn’t changed. They are just now diagnosed and can learn a little more about themselves and receive treatment.

Whether or not your marriage survives kind of depends. Borderlines typically marry narcissists. It’s likely that as your spouse gets more mentally healthy and their self esteem improves, they won’t put up with your crap anymore. You will both have to change for the arraign to work.

?? what? no, borderlines marry people who will tolerate their sh*t. the opposite of a narcissist. a partner to a borderline is much more likely to be passive and codependent, taken in by the borderline’s strong personality when it’s a positive, and then willing to subsume themselves to avoid triggering the borderline’s bad side. another pairing that works is a very emotionally obtuse man who just doesn’t care about the borderline’s antics (and lets the borderline wreak havoc on kids/stepkids/ILs.)

I don’t know what to tell you. Borderline/narcissist is a classic pairing.

This is a good description of why:
https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/01/borderline.html