Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may have a SAH spouse or a spouse without a lot of earning potential. If you make 20% of a biglaw salary and are slightly the breadwinner I would ballpark your salary at $150K and your spouse's salary at $125K which is a really good HHI. About the same as ours actually.

Also, I think some fields don't lend themselves as well to in-house or govt work so they may be legitimately choosing between biglaw or medium law where the workload is about the same between them.

Still a choice! How many people in this situation had a working spouse who then quit their job when they realized that their Big Law spouse wasn't going to be available at all as a parent. I've seen this happen a lot. I know women who quit impressive careers making very good money because they had kids and while they made adjustments to their career to make sure their kids got what they needed, their Big Law spouse didn't. Often having kids seems to coincide with the Big Law spouse suddenly working more hours and moving to a higher level of stress and responsibility at work.

That's a choice, too. So is choosing a practice area that doesn't lend itself to pivoting to in-house or moving into a position with better work/life balance. Everyone knows which practice areas and sub-specialties are more demanding and less conducive to those kinds of changes. You might not know as a 1st or 2nd year associate, but after that, you should know and should be making thoughtful decisions based on what you want in life.

This didn't just happen to you.

What are you… talking about. What firm in this day and age allows associates to pick any practice area they want?

Yes, I knew which practice areas were the best for exiting. So did all the other associates. They were full. Firms push you into practice areas that are busy and they don’t GAF you want to plan an exit.

And those areas are extremely hard to get as a lateral for the same reasons.

I know people who switched practice areas in their 4th or 5th year at a large law firm. I also know people who went in house or moved to a smaller firm before they got locked into a career as, say, an insurance litigator (because that's how their big firm made money and that's where everyone was pushed) because they had some idea of what that would mean for their career down the road and did not want to get trapped in career they hated.

You get that working for a Big Law firm is at-will employment, right? Not indentured servitude? Move to another firm. Move to another market. Do what you need to do to craft a career that works for you, and do this early in your career.

The issue is that a lot of Big Law attorneys are people who have let life happen to them. They went to the most prestigious law school they got into, they took a job with the most prestigious firm who gave them an offer, then they did what that firm told them to do. And then they wake up one day and are like "huh, I'm not happy at all, it must be my job's fault."

It's you. You're the problem.

Can you read an entire post? As I said, those desirable practice areas are also hard to lateral into. Your survivor bias about those who managed it is not illuminating.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am with you and my patience with it wears thin at times too. I'm further out than you (18 years) and no longer actually practice law, though work in consulting in a way that relies on my legal background. I've taken two left turns in my career in order to gain flexibility and work/life balance, and am at a place where I really like both my work and my lifestyle.

I have friends, colleagues, and old law school classmates who stuck out the Big Law track and for the most part are now partners. Some of them are happy. Some of them are not. The main differentiator is whether they chose their life or just let it happen. The people who were thoughtful in their choice of firm, practice area, and approach to their career generally have more satisfaction at this point and in some cases are really reaping the rewards of earlier hard work, instead of descending into the pit of working more and more hours the further into their career they go.

No one is every going to feel sorry for someone making 500k-3 million a year. I might be understanding of how sometimes life doesn't turn out as you hoped, but I don't feel sorry for you. And yes, you absolutely could decide today to change your life and make other choices. Worst case, you could be in a new job with a better lifestyle and still very financial secure and comfortable within a year. Most people could do it in less. They are afraid to. They don't know what they want in life. It's easier for them to go down their unhappy path than to make an affirmative choice about their lives.

I think you too are ignorant about how difficult the exit is. I personally know 5 (!) partners off the top of my head who exited for fedgov only after being promoted to partner because they simply never got an offer before then, despite applying and interviewing. They didn’t do it sooner because they were afraid or unstrategic or any of that. In fact the strategy/practice area is part of what it makes it hard. You have to wait for the right job at the right place for your relevant experience, and then there are good odds you’ll get passed over when you do have the opportunity to apply.

I underestimate nothing -- I am intimately aware of how these transitions occur.

The problem you are having is believing that someone working in a large law firm making a certain salary and doing a certain kind of work deserves only jobs that are at a certain level. They don't. If someone couldn't get the offer they wanted from the government or elsewhere until they made partner, that is a choice they made to pursue a certain career path that involved making partner at a law firm.

No one owes you anything. I'll repeat that: no one owes you anything. I don't care how hard it is for you to find your dream legal job or how hard it is to give up your 300k/yr income or how much the mortgage on your big house is or whatever. If you don't like your job, leave it. Don't spend years and years complaining to everyone who will listen that your super high paying job is really demanding.

Your experience is completely different than mine. No, these people were not leaving for high profile or supervisory government jobs. They were just moving to jobs relevant to their practices. As in, not the VA when their practice is securities law. It’s been very tough in the past few years, especially with all the hiring freezes.

It's tough for everyone. Do you think Big Law attorneys are uniquely burdened by the challenges of the market or the sometimes arbitrary nature of hiring? Nope.

OP's point is not "it's so easy to have a career like mine!" Her point is that it is weird and annoying to listen to people complain about how hard they have to work when they are extremely well compensated for that work and there are other options available to them. And there are always other options. If you don't see them, you are limiting yourself in ways that have everything to do your own hang ups and nothing to do with what is actually possible.

She literally says we could all easily choose to exit to better lifestyle.

Well, I tried like hell, and no, I could not. I ended up quitting entirely after several years of having an open mind and applying to anything that worked geographically. I no longer practice law, which breaks my heart.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may have a SAH spouse or a spouse without a lot of earning potential. If you make 20% of a biglaw salary and are slightly the breadwinner I would ballpark your salary at $150K and your spouse's salary at $125K which is a really good HHI. About the same as ours actually.

Also, I think some fields don't lend themselves as well to in-house or govt work so they may be legitimately choosing between biglaw or medium law where the workload is about the same between them.

Still a choice! How many people in this situation had a working spouse who then quit their job when they realized that their Big Law spouse wasn't going to be available at all as a parent. I've seen this happen a lot. I know women who quit impressive careers making very good money because they had kids and while they made adjustments to their career to make sure their kids got what they needed, their Big Law spouse didn't. Often having kids seems to coincide with the Big Law spouse suddenly working more hours and moving to a higher level of stress and responsibility at work.

That's a choice, too. So is choosing a practice area that doesn't lend itself to pivoting to in-house or moving into a position with better work/life balance. Everyone knows which practice areas and sub-specialties are more demanding and less conducive to those kinds of changes. You might not know as a 1st or 2nd year associate, but after that, you should know and should be making thoughtful decisions based on what you want in life.

This didn't just happen to you.

What are you… talking about. What firm in this day and age allows associates to pick any practice area they want?

Yes, I knew which practice areas were the best for exiting. So did all the other associates. They were full. Firms push you into practice areas that are busy and they don’t GAF you want to plan an exit.

And those areas are extremely hard to get as a lateral for the same reasons.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may have a SAH spouse or a spouse without a lot of earning potential. If you make 20% of a biglaw salary and are slightly the breadwinner I would ballpark your salary at $150K and your spouse's salary at $125K which is a really good HHI. About the same as ours actually.

Also, I think some fields don't lend themselves as well to in-house or govt work so they may be legitimately choosing between biglaw or medium law where the workload is about the same between them.

Still a choice! How many people in this situation had a working spouse who then quit their job when they realized that their Big Law spouse wasn't going to be available at all as a parent. I've seen this happen a lot. I know women who quit impressive careers making very good money because they had kids and while they made adjustments to their career to make sure their kids got what they needed, their Big Law spouse didn't. Often having kids seems to coincide with the Big Law spouse suddenly working more hours and moving to a higher level of stress and responsibility at work.

That's a choice, too. So is choosing a practice area that doesn't lend itself to pivoting to in-house or moving into a position with better work/life balance. Everyone knows which practice areas and sub-specialties are more demanding and less conducive to those kinds of changes. You might not know as a 1st or 2nd year associate, but after that, you should know and should be making thoughtful decisions based on what you want in life.

This didn't just happen to you.

What are you… talking about. What firm in this day and age allows associates to pick any practice area they want?

Yes, I knew which practice areas were the best for exiting. So did all the other associates. They were full. Firms push you into practice areas that are busy and they don’t GAF you want to plan an exit.

And those areas are extremely hard to get as a lateral for the same reasons.

I know people who switched practice areas in their 4th or 5th year at a large law firm. I also know people who went in house or moved to a smaller firm before they got locked into a career as, say, an insurance litigator (because that's how their big firm made money and that's where everyone was pushed) because they had some idea of what that would mean for their career down the road and did not want to get trapped in career they hated.

You get that working for a Big Law firm is at-will employment, right? Not indentured servitude? Move to another firm. Move to another market. Do what you need to do to craft a career that works for you, and do this early in your career.

The issue is that a lot of Big Law attorneys are people who have let life happen to them. They went to the most prestigious law school they got into, they took a job with the most prestigious firm who gave them an offer, then they did what that firm told them to do. And then they wake up one day and are like "huh, I'm not happy at all, it must be my job's fault."

It's you. You're the problem.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s harder to leave than you think.

I spent 10 years in biglaw as a litigator. I never got offered a single job in-house or in Fed gov despite applying widely. I moved firms a couple times just trying to find more peace but it was just as bad, even when I did ultimately accept a pay cut.

One reason I couldn’t get an in-house offer is I couldn’t move to where clients are because of DH’s job which pretty much only exists in DC.

This. It’s not that easy to get a job like yours.

I’d be willing to bet your nonprofits fundraising department relies heavily on donations from big law firms….so these big law lawyers are subsidizing your salary….

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may have a SAH spouse or a spouse without a lot of earning potential. If you make 20% of a biglaw salary and are slightly the breadwinner I would ballpark your salary at $150K and your spouse's salary at $125K which is a really good HHI. About the same as ours actually.

Also, I think some fields don't lend themselves as well to in-house or govt work so they may be legitimately choosing between biglaw or medium law where the workload is about the same between them.

Still a choice! How many people in this situation had a working spouse who then quit their job when they realized that their Big Law spouse wasn't going to be available at all as a parent. I've seen this happen a lot. I know women who quit impressive careers making very good money because they had kids and while they made adjustments to their career to make sure their kids got what they needed, their Big Law spouse didn't. Often having kids seems to coincide with the Big Law spouse suddenly working more hours and moving to a higher level of stress and responsibility at work.

That's a choice, too. So is choosing a practice area that doesn't lend itself to pivoting to in-house or moving into a position with better work/life balance. Everyone knows which practice areas and sub-specialties are more demanding and less conducive to those kinds of changes. You might not know as a 1st or 2nd year associate, but after that, you should know and should be making thoughtful decisions based on what you want in life.

This didn't just happen to you.

What are you… talking about. What firm in this day and age allows associates to pick any practice area they want?

Yes, I knew which practice areas were the best for exiting. So did all the other associates. They were full. Firms push you into practice areas that are busy and they don’t GAF you want to plan an exit.

And those areas are extremely hard to get as a lateral for the same reasons.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am with you and my patience with it wears thin at times too. I'm further out than you (18 years) and no longer actually practice law, though work in consulting in a way that relies on my legal background. I've taken two left turns in my career in order to gain flexibility and work/life balance, and am at a place where I really like both my work and my lifestyle.

I have friends, colleagues, and old law school classmates who stuck out the Big Law track and for the most part are now partners. Some of them are happy. Some of them are not. The main differentiator is whether they chose their life or just let it happen. The people who were thoughtful in their choice of firm, practice area, and approach to their career generally have more satisfaction at this point and in some cases are really reaping the rewards of earlier hard work, instead of descending into the pit of working more and more hours the further into their career they go.

No one is every going to feel sorry for someone making 500k-3 million a year. I might be understanding of how sometimes life doesn't turn out as you hoped, but I don't feel sorry for you. And yes, you absolutely could decide today to change your life and make other choices. Worst case, you could be in a new job with a better lifestyle and still very financial secure and comfortable within a year. Most people could do it in less. They are afraid to. They don't know what they want in life. It's easier for them to go down their unhappy path than to make an affirmative choice about their lives.

I think you too are ignorant about how difficult the exit is. I personally know 5 (!) partners off the top of my head who exited for fedgov only after being promoted to partner because they simply never got an offer before then, despite applying and interviewing. They didn’t do it sooner because they were afraid or unstrategic or any of that. In fact the strategy/practice area is part of what it makes it hard. You have to wait for the right job at the right place for your relevant experience, and then there are good odds you’ll get passed over when you do have the opportunity to apply.

I underestimate nothing -- I am intimately aware of how these transitions occur.

The problem you are having is believing that someone working in a large law firm making a certain salary and doing a certain kind of work deserves only jobs that are at a certain level. They don't. If someone couldn't get the offer they wanted from the government or elsewhere until they made partner, that is a choice they made to pursue a certain career path that involved making partner at a law firm.

No one owes you anything. I'll repeat that: no one owes you anything. I don't care how hard it is for you to find your dream legal job or how hard it is to give up your 300k/yr income or how much the mortgage on your big house is or whatever. If you don't like your job, leave it. Don't spend years and years complaining to everyone who will listen that your super high paying job is really demanding.

Your experience is completely different than mine. No, these people were not leaving for high profile or supervisory government jobs. They were just moving to jobs relevant to their practices. As in, not the VA when their practice is securities law. It’s been very tough in the past few years, especially with all the hiring freezes.

It's tough for everyone. Do you think Big Law attorneys are uniquely burdened by the challenges of the market or the sometimes arbitrary nature of hiring? Nope.

OP's point is not "it's so easy to have a career like mine!" Her point is that it is weird and annoying to listen to people complain about how hard they have to work when they are extremely well compensated for that work and there are other options available to them. And there are always other options. If you don't see them, you are limiting yourself in ways that have everything to do your own hang ups and nothing to do with what is actually possible.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may have a SAH spouse or a spouse without a lot of earning potential. If you make 20% of a biglaw salary and are slightly the breadwinner I would ballpark your salary at $150K and your spouse's salary at $125K which is a really good HHI. About the same as ours actually.

Also, I think some fields don't lend themselves as well to in-house or govt work so they may be legitimately choosing between biglaw or medium law where the workload is about the same between them.

This poster gets it.

Spouse ends up a SAHP because Big Law lawyer can’t contribute very much at home, but then lawyer has to stay in Big Law because other spouse isn’t bringing in money. Lawyer leans into career even more because they’re the sole breadwinner, which further limits SAHP’s options because lawyer isn’t going to stay home with sick kids or to let the plumber in and doesn’t have the time or energy to help with household chores. SAHP outsources some chores because, otherwise, what’s even the point of having this money? Expenses go up due to some outsourcing and Big Law sole breadwinner feels trapped by golden handcuffs.

These are all choices. Did you know that some people, after having kids, realize that their jobs are not compatible with being present in their kids' lives, and they change jobs? Did you know that some couples have frank conversations about how their careers impact their marriage and family, and make these decisions jointly so that the family functions well? Did you know that plenty of smart, talented people choose to pursue careers where they don't make super high incomes, accepting that might mean a smaller home or public school for their kids, but find it worth it because of the lifestyle benefits and the realization that having all that money might not actually be worth it if you are miserable.

Golden handcuffs are imaginary. Stop acting helpless about your own life.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may have a SAH spouse or a spouse without a lot of earning potential. If you make 20% of a biglaw salary and are slightly the breadwinner I would ballpark your salary at $150K and your spouse's salary at $125K which is a really good HHI. About the same as ours actually.

Also, I think some fields don't lend themselves as well to in-house or govt work so they may be legitimately choosing between biglaw or medium law where the workload is about the same between them.

Still a choice! How many people in this situation had a working spouse who then quit their job when they realized that their Big Law spouse wasn't going to be available at all as a parent. I've seen this happen a lot. I know women who quit impressive careers making very good money because they had kids and while they made adjustments to their career to make sure their kids got what they needed, their Big Law spouse didn't. Often having kids seems to coincide with the Big Law spouse suddenly working more hours and moving to a higher level of stress and responsibility at work.

That's a choice, too. So is choosing a practice area that doesn't lend itself to pivoting to in-house or moving into a position with better work/life balance. Everyone knows which practice areas and sub-specialties are more demanding and less conducive to those kinds of changes. You might not know as a 1st or 2nd year associate, but after that, you should know and should be making thoughtful decisions based on what you want in life.

This didn't just happen to you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am with you and my patience with it wears thin at times too. I'm further out than you (18 years) and no longer actually practice law, though work in consulting in a way that relies on my legal background. I've taken two left turns in my career in order to gain flexibility and work/life balance, and am at a place where I really like both my work and my lifestyle.

I have friends, colleagues, and old law school classmates who stuck out the Big Law track and for the most part are now partners. Some of them are happy. Some of them are not. The main differentiator is whether they chose their life or just let it happen. The people who were thoughtful in their choice of firm, practice area, and approach to their career generally have more satisfaction at this point and in some cases are really reaping the rewards of earlier hard work, instead of descending into the pit of working more and more hours the further into their career they go.

No one is every going to feel sorry for someone making 500k-3 million a year. I might be understanding of how sometimes life doesn't turn out as you hoped, but I don't feel sorry for you. And yes, you absolutely could decide today to change your life and make other choices. Worst case, you could be in a new job with a better lifestyle and still very financial secure and comfortable within a year. Most people could do it in less. They are afraid to. They don't know what they want in life. It's easier for them to go down their unhappy path than to make an affirmative choice about their lives.

I think you too are ignorant about how difficult the exit is. I personally know 5 (!) partners off the top of my head who exited for fedgov only after being promoted to partner because they simply never got an offer before then, despite applying and interviewing. They didn’t do it sooner because they were afraid or unstrategic or any of that. In fact the strategy/practice area is part of what it makes it hard. You have to wait for the right job at the right place for your relevant experience, and then there are good odds you’ll get passed over when you do have the opportunity to apply.

I underestimate nothing -- I am intimately aware of how these transitions occur.

The problem you are having is believing that someone working in a large law firm making a certain salary and doing a certain kind of work deserves only jobs that are at a certain level. They don't. If someone couldn't get the offer they wanted from the government or elsewhere until they made partner, that is a choice they made to pursue a certain career path that involved making partner at a law firm.

No one owes you anything. I'll repeat that: no one owes you anything. I don't care how hard it is for you to find your dream legal job or how hard it is to give up your 300k/yr income or how much the mortgage on your big house is or whatever. If you don't like your job, leave it. Don't spend years and years complaining to everyone who will listen that your super high paying job is really demanding.

Your experience is completely different than mine. No, these people were not leaving for high profile or supervisory government jobs. They were just moving to jobs relevant to their practices. As in, not the VA when their practice is securities law. It’s been very tough in the past few years, especially with all the hiring freezes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may have a SAH spouse or a spouse without a lot of earning potential. If you make 20% of a biglaw salary and are slightly the breadwinner I would ballpark your salary at $150K and your spouse's salary at $125K which is a really good HHI. About the same as ours actually.

Also, I think some fields don't lend themselves as well to in-house or govt work so they may be legitimately choosing between biglaw or medium law where the workload is about the same between them.

Still a choice! How many people in this situation had a working spouse who then quit their job when they realized that their Big Law spouse wasn't going to be available at all as a parent. I've seen this happen a lot. I know women who quit impressive careers making very good money because they had kids and while they made adjustments to their career to make sure their kids got what they needed, their Big Law spouse didn't. Often having kids seems to coincide with the Big Law spouse suddenly working more hours and moving to a higher level of stress and responsibility at work.

That's a choice, too. So is choosing a practice area that doesn't lend itself to pivoting to in-house or moving into a position with better work/life balance. Everyone knows which practice areas and sub-specialties are more demanding and less conducive to those kinds of changes. You might not know as a 1st or 2nd year associate, but after that, you should know and should be making thoughtful decisions based on what you want in life.

This didn't just happen to you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am with you and my patience with it wears thin at times too. I'm further out than you (18 years) and no longer actually practice law, though work in consulting in a way that relies on my legal background. I've taken two left turns in my career in order to gain flexibility and work/life balance, and am at a place where I really like both my work and my lifestyle.

I have friends, colleagues, and old law school classmates who stuck out the Big Law track and for the most part are now partners. Some of them are happy. Some of them are not. The main differentiator is whether they chose their life or just let it happen. The people who were thoughtful in their choice of firm, practice area, and approach to their career generally have more satisfaction at this point and in some cases are really reaping the rewards of earlier hard work, instead of descending into the pit of working more and more hours the further into their career they go.

No one is every going to feel sorry for someone making 500k-3 million a year. I might be understanding of how sometimes life doesn't turn out as you hoped, but I don't feel sorry for you. And yes, you absolutely could decide today to change your life and make other choices. Worst case, you could be in a new job with a better lifestyle and still very financial secure and comfortable within a year. Most people could do it in less. They are afraid to. They don't know what they want in life. It's easier for them to go down their unhappy path than to make an affirmative choice about their lives.

I think you too are ignorant about how difficult the exit is. I personally know 5 (!) partners off the top of my head who exited for fedgov only after being promoted to partner because they simply never got an offer before then, despite applying and interviewing. They didn’t do it sooner because they were afraid or unstrategic or any of that. In fact the strategy/practice area is part of what it makes it hard. You have to wait for the right job at the right place for your relevant experience, and then there are good odds you’ll get passed over when you do have the opportunity to apply.

I underestimate nothing -- I am intimately aware of how these transitions occur.

The problem you are having is believing that someone working in a large law firm making a certain salary and doing a certain kind of work deserves only jobs that are at a certain level. They don't. If someone couldn't get the offer they wanted from the government or elsewhere until they made partner, that is a choice they made to pursue a certain career path that involved making partner at a law firm.

No one owes you anything. I'll repeat that: no one owes you anything. I don't care how hard it is for you to find your dream legal job or how hard it is to give up your 300k/yr income or how much the mortgage on your big house is or whatever. If you don't like your job, leave it. Don't spend years and years complaining to everyone who will listen that your super high paying job is really demanding.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They may have a SAH spouse or a spouse without a lot of earning potential. If you make 20% of a biglaw salary and are slightly the breadwinner I would ballpark your salary at $150K and your spouse's salary at $125K which is a really good HHI. About the same as ours actually.

Also, I think some fields don't lend themselves as well to in-house or govt work so they may be legitimately choosing between biglaw or medium law where the workload is about the same between them.

This poster gets it.

Spouse ends up a SAHP because Big Law lawyer can’t contribute very much at home, but then lawyer has to stay in Big Law because other spouse isn’t bringing in money. Lawyer leans into career even more because they’re the sole breadwinner, which further limits SAHP’s options because lawyer isn’t going to stay home with sick kids or to let the plumber in and doesn’t have the time or energy to help with household chores. SAHP outsources some chores because, otherwise, what’s even the point of having this money? Expenses go up due to some outsourcing and Big Law sole breadwinner feels trapped by golden handcuffs.

Anonymous wrote:They may have a SAH spouse or a spouse without a lot of earning potential. If you make 20% of a biglaw salary and are slightly the breadwinner I would ballpark your salary at $150K and your spouse's salary at $125K which is a really good HHI. About the same as ours actually.

Also, I think some fields don't lend themselves as well to in-house or govt work so they may be legitimately choosing between biglaw or medium law where the workload is about the same between them.

Anonymous wrote:They may have a SAH spouse or a spouse without a lot of earning potential. If you make 20% of a biglaw salary and are slightly the breadwinner I would ballpark your salary at $150K and your spouse's salary at $125K which is a really good HHI. About the same as ours actually.

Also, I think some fields don't lend themselves as well to in-house or govt work so they may be legitimately choosing between biglaw or medium law where the workload is about the same between them.