Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does he do this for pooping as well?

Yes, poop and pee.

I tried recently (since posting this) and it was the most annoying 30+ minute stand off. He had an accident in the floor, it freaked him out, he wouldn't finish unless I came in the bathroom with him, he was sobbing hysterically. I tried to ignore but it just didn't stop and he didn't go.

I think I just have to not mention it any more and hope it passes one day. I have no clue.

but in the meantime, you can't be apart from him for longer than he can hold it?

Anonymous wrote:Does he do this for pooping as well?

Yes, poop and pee.

I tried recently (since posting this) and it was the most annoying 30+ minute stand off. He had an accident in the floor, it freaked him out, he wouldn't finish unless I came in the bathroom with him, he was sobbing hysterically. I tried to ignore but it just didn't stop and he didn't go.

I think I just have to not mention it any more and hope it passes one day. I have no clue.

Does he do this for pooping as well?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:this is weird. what if nanny and grandma comes into the bathroom with you for a few times? definitely weird at 4, but..maybe it would help. then, as soon as he starts peeing, you walk out.

If we walk out, he will stop his stream and freak out. If I bring in nanny/others, he will say he doesn’t want them there and only wants mommy/daddy, and won’t go until they leave.

Im sure he sounds like the most bizarre/difficult kid as I type this. But I swear he is so lovable, happy, confident, well adjusted in every other area. But this area is BIZARRE, I fully admit.

yeah, I'm a dad. I'd be like "ok, freak out. I'm out, though." he's not going to keep holding it midstream.

Yeah. Ik kinda with this approach. What else does he have you doing so he doesn't freak out?. He knows his tantrums control mom and dad

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What have you tried so far? Did anything work? Did anything make it worse?

I’ve tried:
Bribing him with candy
Taking him to the toy store and letting him pick out any toy and promising to come back to buy it for him if he goes by himself
I’ve tried calling it going “by yourself” or “like a big boy” or “with [insert any other caregiver]”
I’ve told his teachers and they just say he tells them he doesn’t have to go when they take the kids
I’ve tried telling him it’s what big four year olds do
I’ve tried getting mad
I’ve tried getting sweet and serious
I’ve hammered the issue
I’ve laid off and tried to ignore the issue
I’ve told his pediatrician (she says it’s normal and is his temperament, rather than an error we made during potty training or the result of us working from home)
I’ve told him I can’t do this for him, but rather he has to decide he’s going to be a big boy and do this. He has to dig deep and do it.

He told us he’d do it in January. Then it was “when he turns 4.” Now it’s 5…

Have you tried saying he can't do whatever big thing he wants to do because he has to go by himself?

Do not under any circumstances suggest diapers or pullups. That's potentially creating an issue where there isn't one.

I'd also be really careful with diagnosing him with anxiety and treating it as sut. Many well meaning parents decide to go this route thinking it's gentler but end up creating issues.

Treat it like it's no big deal. He knows where the bathroom is. He knows what he needs to do in there.
Don't rush home or stop something to get him to the bathroom.
Don't bring in nanny, grandma etc to try and get him comfortable with it.
Tell him that today were going to start going to the bathroom by ourselves.

You can if you wish let him know you are available if he really needs help to call you.

He can even leave the door open

Anonymous wrote:Op this sounds like anxiety +accommodation (well intended accommodation!) to me. You are going to have to sit down and make a plan with him where you will be slowly and empathically reducing your accommodation to the anxiety he’s having about going to the bathroom alone. This might mean moving one step farther from the bathroom every day until you fully remove the accommodation. You can be very empathic that you understand this is hard for him AND you are going to help him start to feel confident that he can do this independently.

This article has always helped me with my kid with anxious tendencies:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/04/15/711213752/for-kids-with-anxiety-parents-learn-to-let-them-face-their-fears

This is great.

Leave a package of pull ups in the washroom at home. Explain he has options and only these options:

1) Go on the potty and flush
2) Go in his pants and clean up afterwards
3) Go in a pull up and clean up afterwards

I have no idea if this is good advice, but what if grandma picks him up and just PLIES him with liquids like there's no tomorrow? Obviously, make sure she has some backup clothes. Get that child to drink so much his eyeballs are swimming. Juice, slurpees, whatever it takes.

But at some point the need to pee has to outweigh the desire to control? Maybe?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What have you tried so far? Did anything work? Did anything make it worse?

I’ve tried:
Bribing him with candy
Taking him to the toy store and letting him pick out any toy and promising to come back to buy it for him if he goes by himself
I’ve tried calling it going “by yourself” or “like a big boy” or “with [insert any other caregiver]”
I’ve told his teachers and they just say he tells them he doesn’t have to go when they take the kids
I’ve tried telling him it’s what big four year olds do
I’ve tried getting mad
I’ve tried getting sweet and serious
I’ve hammered the issue
I’ve laid off and tried to ignore the issue
I’ve told his pediatrician (she says it’s normal and is his temperament, rather than an error we made during potty training or the result of us working from home)
I’ve told him I can’t do this for him, but rather he has to decide he’s going to be a big boy and do this. He has to dig deep and do it.

He told us he’d do it in January. Then it was “when he turns 4.” Now it’s 5…

We encountered a similar scenario. My daughter was like this but when she had to do number 2. She could go pee easily no problems. REFUSED #2. REFUSED. Would not do it. Would only poop in a diaper. I tried all the same things you did. Bribing, talking, reasoning, ignoring, taking away the diapers. She held it for 10 days with miralax. Your issues is slightly different but I think at this point its just a mental block. We had to overcome the block.

SO after talking about it, having her teacher talk about it and all the rest mentioned above this is what worked.....This sounds ridiculous but what got us over the block was simply distracting her while i suggested she poop in the basement with mommy. of course she said no and refused but we went downstairs ( i thought a less used bathroom in a private area would help) and i started to tell a crazy story and not let her have not one moment to speak. somehow the poop came out and that was it. she was over it. That was it.

Does he have someone else he really likes? an older friend? a cousin? a relative? Could they come over and have like THE BEST TIME EVER doing something and then maybe they suggest the bathroom together?

I am just brainstorming out loud and i know this may sound stupid to people but if you have not dealt with a extremely stubborn kid you dont know!!!

Anonymous wrote:Op this sounds like anxiety +accommodation (well intended accommodation!) to me. You are going to have to sit down and make a plan with him where you will be slowly and empathically reducing your accommodation to the anxiety he’s having about going to the bathroom alone. This might mean moving one step farther from the bathroom every day until you fully remove the accommodation. You can be very empathic that you understand this is hard for him AND you are going to help him start to feel confident that he can do this independently.

This article has always helped me with my kid with anxious tendencies:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/04/15/711213752/for-kids-with-anxiety-parents-learn-to-let-them-face-their-fears

This is really helpful! Thank you so much. --OP

Op this sounds like anxiety +accommodation (well intended accommodation!) to me. You are going to have to sit down and make a plan with him where you will be slowly and empathically reducing your accommodation to the anxiety he’s having about going to the bathroom alone. This might mean moving one step farther from the bathroom every day until you fully remove the accommodation. You can be very empathic that you understand this is hard for him AND you are going to help him start to feel confident that he can do this independently.

This article has always helped me with my kid with anxious tendencies:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/04/15/711213752/for-kids-with-anxiety-parents-learn-to-let-them-face-their-fears

Tell him if he’s not going pee in the potty he will need to have a diaper. He might fuss about it but tell him that those are his choices. Give him a lot of juice so he really does need to go when he is given the opportunity. He will soon decide he’s ready to try.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:this is weird. what if nanny and grandma comes into the bathroom with you for a few times? definitely weird at 4, but..maybe it would help. then, as soon as he starts peeing, you walk out.

If we walk out, he will stop his stream and freak out. If I bring in nanny/others, he will say he doesn’t want them there and only wants mommy/daddy, and won’t go until they leave.

Im sure he sounds like the most bizarre/difficult kid as I type this. But I swear he is so lovable, happy, confident, well adjusted in every other area. But this area is BIZARRE, I fully admit.

this is not a psychological or fear thing, this is just seeing what he can control. unacceptable, but you've given in so long.

We have our own major potty training issue right now that I'm stuck on, so I wouldn't claim to be an expert.

But I think at this point, I'd at least TRY to leave him hanging. He can't hold it all day. At some point, he'll either pee his pants or pee in the toilet. And unlike with poop, while holding it isn't good for him, it's unlikely to create a major issue to hold it a long time one time. So I'd force it. Adjust to meet your/his vibe, but I'd:

-Tell him the night before, that he's old enough to go to the potty at home without mom or dad. For the last one, have both you and your husband take him. Make a big deal about it! Clap! "You're so good at using the potty, we're so proud of you."
-Put a big fancy toy up on top of the refrigerator, and a candy bar on the back of the toilet. Tell him the first time he goes without mom or dad, he gets BOTH because he's SUCH a big boy!
-In the morning, when he wakes up, just don't go in the bathroom with him, and if he asks, calmly refuse. "Oh, you're such a big boy! You don't need me. Remember, as soon as you make a pee in the potty by yourself* you get the big present and the candy bar."
-If he screams and cries, DON'T negotiate, though you can do plenty of feelings talk like "I know new things can be hard, but you can do hard things!" Big hug, big smiles, calm demeanor. But NO negotiations.
-If he holds it, do NOT force it, bring it up, discuss it, or anything. Let this be between him and his bladder, not him and you.

I don't think there is any way he's going to make it 24 hours (from bedtime one night until bedtime the night before) without peeing. So either he'll cave and go on the potty, or he'll wet his pants. Either way, you've broken the logjam. Feels like progress.

If he does wet his pants, I'd probably do a long, slow, annoying cleanup, but with no negative energy. "Oops! Looks like you had an accident. That's okay, accidents happen. We'll just get you all cleaned up." Make this process take forever. Maybe with a shower? And then he'll need to help you clean the floor. NOT a punishment. No negative comments about this at all, just natural consequences. And assurances. "Don't worry! I'm sure you'll make it to the potty next time. I've seen you use the potty so many times, I know you can do it, and you're so good at it!" Calm smile.

If he pees in his pants for more than... 3 days? Then I dunno what I'd do. But I think I'd at least let it play out that long.

*You've got to make a call on what you think would be better, no one, or another trust adult (like grandma). If grandma needs to spend the night for this project to work, so be it.