Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 11:00     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I quit my job in basically that situation. It came down to one or the other and he was never going to make the professional changes. We were both in biglaw.


I don't get this Biglaw starts at 215k these days. So both of you were making atleast 500k, no.

With 100k in house help, you can pretty much outsource 75% of stuff. Why quit?


Things you can not outsource:

Mental accounting of you children. So, who reads the school emails and puts the necessary dates in the calendar? Who lines up day camps for the days they are off school? Who notices it's book fair week and puts money in the backpack? Who remembers the 5 year old needs a snack packed EVERY day? Who keeps track of what size clothing each of the kids wears? Who cleans out the drawers? Who buys the new clothes? Who makes sure they fit? Who figures out what to do with outgrown clothing? Who pays attention to summer camp registration? When it that? What weeks are we going on vacation? What week is their favorite camp held that they don't want to miss? When is the sign up for basketball? Do they need a well visit scheduled? Dentist? When was the last time we had a date night, I should book a sitter. Christmas is looming, time to start tracking what things the kids like and would enjoy. Time to book the special events and start planning visits and doing the gift buying.

AND ON AND ON.

You can outsource laundry and cleaning, sure. Food shopping, sort of. Cooking, maybe if you are very rich. But their is day to day minutia of running a house and having children that is NOT outsourceable, that often falls to moms. We are not better at this, but culturally we have been conditioned to do it. I just had a dad this morning, who is a lawyer, tell me he can't keep up with the school emails. It is not that hard to read the school emails! Do you ignore emails from co-workers? No, you read them, pull out what you need and delete. These are the same skills.

If you could outsource all of this, you are acknowledging that doing these things is A JOB, correct? A job that should pay money, right? So why is it only the mom's job? Men are capable, they just opt out. Women are screaming at the top of their lungs that they can't do it all and are desperate for help. And many men (not all!) will go rake the yard and then ask for a pat on the back. Do you see how that didn't address a single piece of the daily minutia?


It shouldn't be only moms who do it. My DH does, but he is maxed out salary wise at 200k, and I am just starting out after taking a mommy break.

You can bet that when we make a combined 500k and more, we are hiring a household manager to schedule camps, vacations, doctors' visits, pack snacks etc. We already talk about it. Lol.


I know female law firm partners who have household managers. It's actually crazy in your case to give up your career for a man who I'd that self centered. Well, unless you are independently wealthy.
Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 10:59     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I quit my job in basically that situation. It came down to one or the other and he was never going to make the professional changes. We were both in biglaw.


I don't get this Biglaw starts at 215k these days. So both of you were making atleast 500k, no.

With 100k in house help, you can pretty much outsource 75% of stuff. Why quit?


Things you can not outsource:

Mental accounting of you children. So, who reads the school emails and puts the necessary dates in the calendar? Who lines up day camps for the days they are off school? Who notices it's book fair week and puts money in the backpack? Who remembers the 5 year old needs a snack packed EVERY day? Who keeps track of what size clothing each of the kids wears? Who cleans out the drawers? Who buys the new clothes? Who makes sure they fit? Who figures out what to do with outgrown clothing? Who pays attention to summer camp registration? When it that? What weeks are we going on vacation? What week is their favorite camp held that they don't want to miss? When is the sign up for basketball? Do they need a well visit scheduled? Dentist? When was the last time we had a date night, I should book a sitter. Christmas is looming, time to start tracking what things the kids like and would enjoy. Time to book the special events and start planning visits and doing the gift buying.

AND ON AND ON.

You can outsource laundry and cleaning, sure. Food shopping, sort of. Cooking, maybe if you are very rich. But their is day to day minutia of running a house and having children that is NOT outsourceable, that often falls to moms. We are not better at this, but culturally we have been conditioned to do it. I just had a dad this morning, who is a lawyer, tell me he can't keep up with the school emails. It is not that hard to read the school emails! Do you ignore emails from co-workers? No, you read them, pull out what you need and delete. These are the same skills.

If you could outsource all of this, you are acknowledging that doing these things is A JOB, correct? A job that should pay money, right? So why is it only the mom's job? Men are capable, they just opt out. Women are screaming at the top of their lungs that they can't do it all and are desperate for help. And many men (not all!) will go rake the yard and then ask for a pat on the back. Do you see how that didn't address a single piece of the daily minutia?


I’m the PP to whom the question was posed and all this, plus much more. Field trips and other school events, managing kid illnesses (even non serious things like persistent eczema), tracking academic performance for tutoring needs (which really means doing their homework with them at least sometimes), etc etc.

We have generally had a nanny that did the lunches/snacks, but I never had one that really took initiative to foresee issues and it was on me to manage her and tell her what to do, set up playdates and outings for her to execute on, stuff like that. Actually when I think about it, not that different than my husband, “just tell me what to do and I’ll do it!”
Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 10:53     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m about to. We had a talk about it last night and H threw a fit saying I don’t appreciate the one time he cleaned up the yard.

Then I went to empty the dishwasher and he goes “why are you doing that??” Uh, because the dishes need to be unloaded and no one else will do it? Which p!ssed him off, he told me to get out of the kitchen, and made a huge deal by spending two hours cleaning the kitchen down to every last detail to prove I’m not the martyr I think I am.

UGH.


PP who quit. My DH used to do things exactly like this. He also would accuse me of doing make-work that even he acknowledges today were necessary kid tasks.

In my case I can say now he really *couldn’t* do more at home given the weight of his professional load. I grew up middle class and was really resistant to hiring out the level of stuff we needed to. He grew up UMC and didn’t understand why I was reacting like that. But even for things that just could not be outsourced, I think he got very defensive about it and refused to open his eyes to the reality of 1) how much life stuff just cannot be outsourced 2) how much I was doing. Because if he really saw it, he’d have to admit it was deeply unfair and accept that he was the bad guy in the dynamic, which is a big blow to anyone’s ego. If that’s what you have to convince your spouse of, that they are treating you very unfairly (and in my case that was also hobbling my career which I was just as ambitious about as him) well, that’s just a big pill to swallow.


So he was very professionally busy and offered up the solution of hiring stuff out and you resisted? And still complained about the workload?


…yes? I’m admitting we were both wrong. That’s how we are still married my friend.


You’re still married because you caved and gave up your financial independence.
Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 10:53     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:It's definitely tough...I work from home while DH goes in to the office so a lot of stuff falls to me, especially on days when the kids are home.

I miss those early pandemic days when I worked from home and he was out of work and took care of everything around the house.


I have WFH full time for a long time so I've always done the bulk of stuff at home, even before we had kids, because it's just really easy to build stuff like laundry, food prep, and cleaning into your day when you have no commute and you are home all day.

However, during Covid he started WFH, first full time and now just a couple days a week. And I resent how little he does around the house when he is WFH. I don't expect him to do as much as I do when it's just me, but he does NOTHING. He doesn't even rinse his dishes and put them in the dishwasher, which I know is something he does in the office. And during the time that our then-toddler was also home with us all day, he did significantly less childcare and when he did do any, he was constantly asking me if I could take over so he could get back to work. Again, I work full time, but he's myopic about this and seems to think his job is more important even though we make similar salaries.

I have come to resent his WFH days because he feels like dead weight. He works in the dining room (we don't have a home office), he is on calls all day, he doesn't clean up after himself. I know he likes not commuting and I like that for him but I used to love WFH because the house was so quiet and clean and I feel like it ran really efficiently. Now it's like I'll go to do some meal prep during my lunch hour but I have to stop and clean up his breakfast and lunch messes first so that I have counter space to work in. I can't run the vacuum during a break because he's on the phone, etc.

If he lost his job I feel pretty confident I'd still be doing the bulk of the housework and childcare somehow.
Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 10:53     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I quit my job in basically that situation. It came down to one or the other and he was never going to make the professional changes. We were both in biglaw.


I don't get this Biglaw starts at 215k these days. So both of you were making atleast 500k, no.

With 100k in house help, you can pretty much outsource 75% of stuff. Why quit?


We were making a lot more than that when we were both on the eve of partnership vote, of course. But double biglaw partner just was not how we wanted to raise our 3 kids.
Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 10:51     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Because divorce suddenly relieves that workload?



DP. I am divorcing and the unfair division of labor is a huge part of it. YES it will make it much easier for me. I’ll only have to clean up for 2 people not 3. Finances will be all under my control. I already have to nag stbx for money, so having to do it for childcare expenses post-divorce won’t be a big change, with the added bonus that he will have to pay me late fees under our financial agreement. The ability to control my own space and finances will be a huge relief.
Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 10:50     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m about to. We had a talk about it last night and H threw a fit saying I don’t appreciate the one time he cleaned up the yard.

Then I went to empty the dishwasher and he goes “why are you doing that??” Uh, because the dishes need to be unloaded and no one else will do it? Which p!ssed him off, he told me to get out of the kitchen, and made a huge deal by spending two hours cleaning the kitchen down to every last detail to prove I’m not the martyr I think I am.

UGH.


PP who quit. My DH used to do things exactly like this. He also would accuse me of doing make-work that even he acknowledges today were necessary kid tasks.

In my case I can say now he really *couldn’t* do more at home given the weight of his professional load. I grew up middle class and was really resistant to hiring out the level of stuff we needed to. He grew up UMC and didn’t understand why I was reacting like that. But even for things that just could not be outsourced, I think he got very defensive about it and refused to open his eyes to the reality of 1) how much life stuff just cannot be outsourced 2) how much I was doing. Because if he really saw it, he’d have to admit it was deeply unfair and accept that he was the bad guy in the dynamic, which is a big blow to anyone’s ego. If that’s what you have to convince your spouse of, that they are treating you very unfairly (and in my case that was also hobbling my career which I was just as ambitious about as him) well, that’s just a big pill to swallow.


So he was very professionally busy and offered up the solution of hiring stuff out and you resisted? And still complained about the workload?


…yes? I’m admitting we were both wrong. That’s how we are still married my friend.
Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 10:47     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
That was part of it. The mental disorder symptoms included exec functioning issues, auditory processing issues, verbal communication avoidance & issues, and anger issues.
Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 10:46     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Because divorce suddenly relieves that workload?



Often, yes.



So the money you would have spent outsourcing is spent running two households. Except with 2 households your children are moving back and forth. Hmmmm


So no response to the fact that a divorce can actually make housework less stressful, even when kids are around?

I never advocated for divorce by the way. I think you're coming from a place of defensiveness and I don't know why.
Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 10:45     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Because divorce suddenly relieves that workload?



When my DH is out of town for work, life is so much easier because I don't have to clean up after him and parenting goes smoother when it's just me because I have more patience and a better rapport with the kids so there is less conflict. They do their chores and listen to me.

When DH is home (1) there is more mess to clean up, and he does not clean up after himself, (2) he loses patience with the kids easily creating conflicts over stuff like getting ready for bed or getting ready for school that just are not an issue when it's just me, and (3) I also wind up getting less alone time to recharge or focus on my own stuff, because he demands a lot of my attention, so I feel more drained in general.

We are not on the verge of divorce but I have definitely been thinking lately about how it would simplify my life. Splitting the households would be tough financially, but currently I don't outsource so it's not like I'd lose that even with dividing income. I'd have to move to a smaller home and kids would likely have to change schools. But actually managing that home? Would be easier and I'd get a lot more time to myself and there would be less conflict in my house.
Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 10:44     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
If I have super high standards, I'd probably feel the same way, but I way lowered expectations. The kids are now old enough to take over some chores. DH handles cars/home repairs/finances without any of my involvement, and life is great.
Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 10:44     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
It's definitely tough...I work from home while DH goes in to the office so a lot of stuff falls to me, especially on days when the kids are home.

I miss those early pandemic days when I worked from home and he was out of work and took care of everything around the house.
Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 10:43     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I quit my job in basically that situation. It came down to one or the other and he was never going to make the professional changes. We were both in biglaw.


I don't get this Biglaw starts at 215k these days. So both of you were making atleast 500k, no.

With 100k in house help, you can pretty much outsource 75% of stuff. Why quit?


Things you can not outsource:

Mental accounting of you children. So, who reads the school emails and puts the necessary dates in the calendar? Who lines up day camps for the days they are off school? Who notices it's book fair week and puts money in the backpack? Who remembers the 5 year old needs a snack packed EVERY day? Who keeps track of what size clothing each of the kids wears? Who cleans out the drawers? Who buys the new clothes? Who makes sure they fit? Who figures out what to do with outgrown clothing? Who pays attention to summer camp registration? When it that? What weeks are we going on vacation? What week is their favorite camp held that they don't want to miss? When is the sign up for basketball? Do they need a well visit scheduled? Dentist? When was the last time we had a date night, I should book a sitter. Christmas is looming, time to start tracking what things the kids like and would enjoy. Time to book the special events and start planning visits and doing the gift buying.

AND ON AND ON.

You can outsource laundry and cleaning, sure. Food shopping, sort of. Cooking, maybe if you are very rich. But their is day to day minutia of running a house and having children that is NOT outsourceable, that often falls to moms. We are not better at this, but culturally we have been conditioned to do it. I just had a dad this morning, who is a lawyer, tell me he can't keep up with the school emails. It is not that hard to read the school emails! Do you ignore emails from co-workers? No, you read them, pull out what you need and delete. These are the same skills.

If you could outsource all of this, you are acknowledging that doing these things is A JOB, correct? A job that should pay money, right? So why is it only the mom's job? Men are capable, they just opt out. Women are screaming at the top of their lungs that they can't do it all and are desperate for help. And many men (not all!) will go rake the yard and then ask for a pat on the back. Do you see how that didn't address a single piece of the daily minutia?
Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 10:39     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My mom and my grandmother had jobs as well as doing everything around the house, so stop whining.


Your dad and grandfathers were a$$holes, so stop aspiring to their lives.


And work days were shorter in those days than they are now
Anonymous
Post 11/03/2022 10:37     Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:My mom and my grandmother had jobs as well as doing everything around the house, so stop whining.


Your dad and grandfathers were a$$holes, so stop aspiring to their lives.