Anonymous
Post 07/21/2022 16:17     Subject: Puppy that growls/snaps
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:20:49 here.

The issue here is not sleeping or not in the crate, it's the signs of dominance that this puppy is exhibiting. That is not allowed. She cannot learn that there are certain conditions in which she can be aggressive towards you. You HAVE to teach her not do act like this.

"Nonviolent civil disobedience", as I call it, is fine. My dog will let me know when he's done getting his nails dremeled, or when he's tired of getting brushed (he has a heavily shedding double coat, so the brushing has to happen regularly). Instead of acting aggressive, he will gently rise and move away, and if I try to call him or catch him, keep moving away from me, in submissive tail-down, apologetic sort of way. So I let him alone. Respecting boundaries when they're non violent is part of the trust contract. This way when I really need him to comply for something important, he lets me man-handle him - vaccines and teeth-scraping at the vet come to mind.

But the rare times he's been aggressive as a teen, I've doubled down. I cannot let him think he can rule by aggressive displays, ever. That's not how dogs can live with humans, especially vulnerable children. So when he was a teen, I had to yell, swat him on the nose (didn't hurt but it surprised him), and drag him unceremoniously to his crate multiple times. We are past that stage now. You're at the beginning of it, so buckle down: show him you won't tolerate aggression, but that you can sometimes allow non-violent dissent. It takes a lot of observation and communication.


Yes I agree it's not about the crate. But still unclear what exactly you do to not tolerate it or doubling down. What is the consequence? Thanks.


[16:02 PP here]

I look at growling because they were wakened as different from growling because they don't want to go into the crate.

For the crate, when she growls and nips, I would stop immediately and tell her, "No!" and I would keep holding her (or whatever you are doing) until she calms down and relaxes. Then I would follow through with putting her in the crate. If she goes in and is calm without resistance, I'd give her a treat and praise her.

I am NOT a trainer. I'm just telling you how I'd approach it with my dogs. For us, it worked well.

Good luck!
Anonymous
Post 07/21/2022 16:02     Subject: Puppy that growls/snaps
Anonymous wrote:20:49 here.

The issue here is not sleeping or not in the crate, it's the signs of dominance that this puppy is exhibiting. That is not allowed. She cannot learn that there are certain conditions in which she can be aggressive towards you. You HAVE to teach her not do act like this.

"Nonviolent civil disobedience", as I call it, is fine. My dog will let me know when he's done getting his nails dremeled, or when he's tired of getting brushed (he has a heavily shedding double coat, so the brushing has to happen regularly). Instead of acting aggressive, he will gently rise and move away, and if I try to call him or catch him, keep moving away from me, in submissive tail-down, apologetic sort of way. So I let him alone. Respecting boundaries when they're non violent is part of the trust contract. This way when I really need him to comply for something important, he lets me man-handle him - vaccines and teeth-scraping at the vet come to mind.

But the rare times he's been aggressive as a teen, I've doubled down. I cannot let him think he can rule by aggressive displays, ever. That's not how dogs can live with humans, especially vulnerable children. So when he was a teen, I had to yell, swat him on the nose (didn't hurt but it surprised him), and drag him unceremoniously to his crate multiple times. We are past that stage now. You're at the beginning of it, so buckle down: show him you won't tolerate aggression, but that you can sometimes allow non-violent dissent. It takes a lot of observation and communication.


I agree with this PP.^ I have 2 dogs, and one is a giant breed. Both of my dogs are very, very sweet now. As small puppies, though, they both tried me. They both growled occasionally or barked at me when they didn't want to obey a command or whatever. Each time, I corrected it with a stern, "No!"

One time, my Mastiff puppy walked into my guest room (where she's not allowed). I told her to get out. She stood firm and growled at me in defiance. I corrected that immediately with my body position and my voice. She ran away, and she's never done that again.

I just don't tolerate that sort of puppy defiance. If you let it go, they will continue to do it.

[NP]
Anonymous
Post 07/21/2022 13:57     Subject: Re:Puppy that growls/snaps
My guess is you once left her in the crate too long and she was uncomfortable or in pain from needing to potty. I'd practice putting her in for shorter periods (e.g., 30 minutes to 1 hour) and letting her out again. Don't leave her for longer periods (i.e., > 3 hrs during the day) until the behavior stops.
Anonymous
Post 07/21/2022 13:54     Subject: Re:Puppy that growls/snaps
Some trainers suggest feeding the dog in their crate (with the door open). I'd move feeding time into the crate for a positive association and also treat anytime you want the dog in the crate.

I'd also stop poking a sleeping dog. If you need them up, put treats in your hand and call their name. Give them a treat when they get up. Give another for going to and then into the crate. Use lots of praise.
Anonymous
Post 07/21/2022 13:39     Subject: Puppy that growls/snaps
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Serious training. Now.


Ok what are your credentials? Curious if you're a trainer. And I know I want to train her more but my post is about the differing views. One is positive reinforcement and leadership. The other is the collar


My credentials are I have been fostering dogs for about five years, including litters of puppies. I am not a trainer. I take dogs with challenges to a trainer. I've worked with a few, try Blue Ridge Canine. They are in Culpepper but do meet ups in the DC metro area.

The thing about training is it isn't finished. It's ongoing. We spent Sunday every week for months meeting our trainer at a park, with others, for training. Some of the participants actually send their dogs away to live with the trainers for a while. Yes, I use but the carrot and the stick - prong collars and high value treats. Bits of hot dog are the best. I've even used an e collar but just the beep and vibrate, not the shock. Whatever it takes to keep a dog behaving in a way that you... can keep the dog.

Have the dog evaluated. It may not be the dog for you. I rescue dogs and don't want any to be abandoned but you can't have a dog in your home you can't trust.


Thanks. So you're disagreeing with the PP's advice on keeping it positive? This is our first dog. She's great! I am naturally scared of dogs and she probably can tell. I think there is some great advice from all angles. We need to work on training more. She does sit and wait before gojng out or eating and does sit down and stay etc. but we need to work on it more. We do like 5 min a day.


I am telling you that I have had success using a variety of available tools, depending on the dog. I don't believe in punishment. I believe in preventing the negative circumstance in the first place.

A prong collar, for example, helps me control my dog, so I don't have problems with him engaging in negative behaviors, and positive behaviors are always rewarded.

And as I said about the e collar - I don't shock. I use vibrate and ring. It's enough to distract the dog so I can redirect with a treat.

If you know the dog bites or snaps when going in the crate, you find another way of getting them in the crate. For example, I show the dog the high value treat, then toss it in the crate and close the door.

Anonymous
Post 07/19/2022 10:55     Subject: Puppy that growls/snaps
I say to my golden doodle "bed time" and he gets up and we walk to his crate.

sometimes if we have to crate him for safety (we're out) I say " in the crate now" because it's not bedtime. He gets it, he goes to it and I open the gate and he goes in.

Practice.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2022 10:52     Subject: Puppy that growls/snaps
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Is she reluctant to go into the crate or just doesn't like being picked up/jostled? Those are two different things.


It varies. More just growls and snaps here and there. Not really random but not only
For crate. Usually involves handling or picking up. Def annoyed when sleepy. Maybe mostly being picked up or paws being cleaned is another example. That one we are solving with treats.


Have you tried treating the other times? When dogs are young (and even old, really) and in training or you're working on changing behaviors you need to treat them for all your worth, and then you can decide to wean off treats in time.

My dog had a brief "teenage" period when he'd avoid the crate when he saw me getting my bag packed for work, and this is a dog who LOVED his crate all other times. I started tossing the highest-value treat (greenie from Trader Joe's) in there and he hightailed it right on in to happily dig in. Soon he did it himself -- saw me get my work bag and put shoes on, and he'd sprint for the crate. Even now that he's old and the crate has been gone for years he gets interested when I leave the house, and asks for a treat.


PP again. I wanted to add that I originally trained my dog in the crate over.
Go in crate, get a treat, come on back out.
Go in crate, get a treat, close door, get a treat, come back out.
Go in crate, get a treat, close door, get a treat, stay for a minute while I sit nearby, come back out.
Go in crate, get a treat, close door, get a treat, stay for a minute while I walk out of room, open door to come back out.
Go in crate, get a treat, close door, get a treat, stay for a minute while I leave the house for a few minutes, open crate door to come back out.

And slowly, slowly build up from there. Eventually he'd just fall asleep when I would spend longer periods out of the house, and not even care when I opened the door. He would just finish his nap and come out when ready

Even if your dog currently has a crate issue, you can begin again with 100% positive associations. They have to trust that you'll always be happy about it, nothing bad is happening, you love them, etc.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2022 09:24     Subject: Puppy that growls/snaps
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Is she reluctant to go into the crate or just doesn't like being picked up/jostled? Those are two different things.


It varies. More just growls and snaps here and there. Not really random but not only
For crate. Usually involves handling or picking up. Def annoyed when sleepy. Maybe mostly being picked up or paws being cleaned is another example. That one we are solving with treats.


Have you tried treating the other times? When dogs are young (and even old, really) and in training or you're working on changing behaviors you need to treat them for all your worth, and then you can decide to wean off treats in time.

My dog had a brief "teenage" period when he'd avoid the crate when he saw me getting my bag packed for work, and this is a dog who LOVED his crate all other times. I started tossing the highest-value treat (greenie from Trader Joe's) in there and he hightailed it right on in to happily dig in. Soon he did it himself -- saw me get my work bag and put shoes on, and he'd sprint for the crate. Even now that he's old and the crate has been gone for years he gets interested when I leave the house, and asks for a treat.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2022 06:59     Subject: Puppy that growls/snaps
Anonymous wrote:Is she reluctant to go into the crate or just doesn't like being picked up/jostled? Those are two different things.


It varies. More just growls and snaps here and there. Not really random but not only
For crate. Usually involves handling or picking up. Def annoyed when sleepy. Maybe mostly being picked up or paws being cleaned is another example. That one we are solving with treats.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2022 06:57     Subject: Puppy that growls/snaps
Is she reluctant to go into the crate or just doesn't like being picked up/jostled? Those are two different things.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2022 06:50     Subject: Puppy that growls/snaps
Anonymous wrote:20:49 here.

The issue here is not sleeping or not in the crate, it's the signs of dominance that this puppy is exhibiting. That is not allowed. She cannot learn that there are certain conditions in which she can be aggressive towards you. You HAVE to teach her not do act like this.

"Nonviolent civil disobedience", as I call it, is fine. My dog will let me know when he's done getting his nails dremeled, or when he's tired of getting brushed (he has a heavily shedding double coat, so the brushing has to happen regularly). Instead of acting aggressive, he will gently rise and move away, and if I try to call him or catch him, keep moving away from me, in submissive tail-down, apologetic sort of way. So I let him alone. Respecting boundaries when they're non violent is part of the trust contract. This way when I really need him to comply for something important, he lets me man-handle him - vaccines and teeth-scraping at the vet come to mind.

But the rare times he's been aggressive as a teen, I've doubled down. I cannot let him think he can rule by aggressive displays, ever. That's not how dogs can live with humans, especially vulnerable children. So when he was a teen, I had to yell, swat him on the nose (didn't hurt but it surprised him), and drag him unceremoniously to his crate multiple times. We are past that stage now. You're at the beginning of it, so buckle down: show him you won't tolerate aggression, but that you can sometimes allow non-violent dissent. It takes a lot of observation and communication.


Yes I agree it's not about the crate. But still unclear what exactly you do to not tolerate it or doubling down. What is the consequence? Thanks.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2022 01:13     Subject: Puppy that growls/snaps
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't let my dogs behave like that until they're very old and I need to monitor their decline carefully. The rest of the time they have to obey, 24/7. They are not humans. They are not allowed to decline the crate or be aggressive when they wake up.

Your case is especially important, OP, because you have a dog on the cusp of teen rebellion. If you don't nip that behavior in the bud, you're going to get more and more pushback for other things, and your puppy's bite inhibition will fade, which is very dangerous. A 40lbs biting rebel is not what you want.

I wake up dogs gently. They have never been aggressive with that sort of wake-up. If they try to growl and snap, they get a very displeased, angry voice. If they don't want to go in the crate, I leash them and pull them inside. Once they're in the crate, they get a treat, and as soon as they calm down, they get a gentle, warm voice. After a while, resistance disappears. Generally, all my dogs understood pretty quickly that they don't the angry tone and the displeased human, and that doing what I ask always leads to a more pleasant life for them. You've got to make the right choice easy to pick!


Thanks-- how do you get them in the crate with the leash? Seems you would have to crawl in there lol. Good advice!


You never want to invade their "den" by going in yourself. Don't let kids or other pets get in there either, since part of the appeal of the crate is that it's their private space that they are sure no one will ever take from them. I pull them up to the crate, and either entice them in with a treat, or physically push them in until they learn to go in of their own accord.


I've had dogs my whole life and have NEVER had to pull or push a dog into their crate. It is a cozy place where only good things happen.

My dog thinks it is hilarious when my kid gets in his crate. He gets excited, brings toys to him, curls up, etc. It is the cool, fun doggy place to be. Not suggesting this for OP, of course, since her dog has already developed some negative associations w/the crate.
Anonymous
Post 07/18/2022 22:36     Subject: Puppy that growls/snaps
We trained mine to accept pick ups - okay pup I'm going to pick you up now (when they're happy) then say a cue "up up up" as you lift them, then treat and praise extensively, then set them down. Repeat.

This worked as pup was about same age and growling when kids tried to move them (necessarily). As much as possible try to use treats to guide them, try to give them the same respect you would a bigger same age dog who you could not pick up.

Don't ever punish growls and most of the dominance stuff is crap. Teach them the expectation and acceptable behaviour. Just a firm but gentle voice and tell them what's happening and why.
Anonymous
Post 07/18/2022 22:13     Subject: Puppy that growls/snaps
20:49 here.

The issue here is not sleeping or not in the crate, it's the signs of dominance that this puppy is exhibiting. That is not allowed. She cannot learn that there are certain conditions in which she can be aggressive towards you. You HAVE to teach her not do act like this.

"Nonviolent civil disobedience", as I call it, is fine. My dog will let me know when he's done getting his nails dremeled, or when he's tired of getting brushed (he has a heavily shedding double coat, so the brushing has to happen regularly). Instead of acting aggressive, he will gently rise and move away, and if I try to call him or catch him, keep moving away from me, in submissive tail-down, apologetic sort of way. So I let him alone. Respecting boundaries when they're non violent is part of the trust contract. This way when I really need him to comply for something important, he lets me man-handle him - vaccines and teeth-scraping at the vet come to mind.

But the rare times he's been aggressive as a teen, I've doubled down. I cannot let him think he can rule by aggressive displays, ever. That's not how dogs can live with humans, especially vulnerable children. So when he was a teen, I had to yell, swat him on the nose (didn't hurt but it surprised him), and drag him unceremoniously to his crate multiple times. We are past that stage now. You're at the beginning of it, so buckle down: show him you won't tolerate aggression, but that you can sometimes allow non-violent dissent. It takes a lot of observation and communication.
Anonymous
Post 07/18/2022 21:36     Subject: Puppy that growls/snaps
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Serious training. Now.


Ok what are your credentials? Curious if you're a trainer. And I know I want to train her more but my post is about the differing views. One is positive reinforcement and leadership. The other is the collar


My credentials are I have been fostering dogs for about five years, including litters of puppies. I am not a trainer. I take dogs with challenges to a trainer. I've worked with a few, try Blue Ridge Canine. They are in Culpepper but do meet ups in the DC metro area.

The thing about training is it isn't finished. It's ongoing. We spent Sunday every week for months meeting our trainer at a park, with others, for training. Some of the participants actually send their dogs away to live with the trainers for a while. Yes, I use but the carrot and the stick - prong collars and high value treats. Bits of hot dog are the best. I've even used an e collar but just the beep and vibrate, not the shock. Whatever it takes to keep a dog behaving in a way that you... can keep the dog.

Have the dog evaluated. It may not be the dog for you. I rescue dogs and don't want any to be abandoned but you can't have a dog in your home you can't trust.


Thanks. So you're disagreeing with the PP's advice on keeping it positive? This is our first dog. She's great! I am naturally scared of dogs and she probably can tell. I think there is some great advice from all angles. We need to work on training more. She does sit and wait before gojng out or eating and does sit down and stay etc. but we need to work on it more. We do like 5 min a day.


Please ignore the pp. Prong collars and shock collars are not the way to go. Your dog is communicating with you. Why would you want to take that away? Also, your dog may not need to sleep in the crate. My dog is very good about sleeping at night when we are asleep and doesn't do anything bad when not in the crate. I do agree training is on going but there is no need to move a sleeping dog!