Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, you don't ask the other sibling to invite someone she is estranged from, mother or not. She's hosting and gets to invite who she wants.

OP here. This is what I figured. Should I not even bring it up? It’s a touchy subject. I guess I just feel guilty but don’t blame sibling for how they got to this point.

Please don’t even mention it to the hosting sibling. I was the one to cut my parents off first. Eventually my sister got there too. She had an off/on relationship with them for years before cutting them off. She kept trying to prove she was a good daughter and make them see she didn’t deserve the abuse she got from them. It sucked to watch but her relationship with them is her own.

If she had asked me to invite them to a holiday visit I’m hosting, knowing how they treated us, knowing they ruin everything they touch, knowing I want to protect my children from the abuse we suffered at their hands… I’d be reevaluating my relationship with her at a minimum. The fact that she would be okay with exposing my children to abuse is way over the line and would make me question her judgment. That she’s more concerned with our abusers’ feelings than mine and hers, and most importantly our children’s, would make me question how she feels about us. Id be very worried about the abuse cycle perpetuating in her home and keep a close eye on her kids as much as I can.

The mere thought of asking me to invite the people who abused me instead of loving me into my home to ruin another holiday is triggering. It brings up a lot of memories, what ifs, negative feelings. Please don’t do that to your sister. It’s cruel. And get some therapy. Then a little more. You shouldn’t be trying to please the people who broke you, and you most definitely shouldn’t be trying to help them break the ones who escape the cycle. You also shouldn’t be normalizing abuse around your children.

Do you have stockholm syndrome or something? Are you craving the drama that could result from this? Why on earth are you even thinking of bringing this up to your sibling. There is rarely a time on DCUM where everyone agrees, and this might be the time.

No, you can’t ask your sibling to end her estrangement from your parents just so you can avoid an uncomfortable conversation with them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If mom knows that she and Sibling #1 are estranged, then I would tell your parents that you're going to Sibling #1's for Thanksgiving. Offer to do Thanksgiving with your parents either the night before you go or the night you get back.

If your mom gets upset, then you have to say you aren't getting in the middle of it. (This is what I had to say to my parents.)

You can't be held hostage by your mother at the expense of your siblings. You have so many relationships to develop for the long term with cousins and siblings after your parents are gone.

Plus 1.

Something doesn't sit with me right about "'m not getting in the middle." How about "Mom, I support Suzy!" We, as women still are pretty messed up when it comes to abuse. In the words of Elie Weizel :

“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."

We have this exact same scenario. Except the parents always host holidays. The estranged sibling does not come. We visit with the estranged sibling separately on other occasions.

Anonymous wrote:If mom knows that she and Sibling #1 are estranged, then I would tell your parents that you're going to Sibling #1's for Thanksgiving. Offer to do Thanksgiving with your parents either the night before you go or the night you get back.

If your mom gets upset, then you have to say you aren't getting in the middle of it. (This is what I had to say to my parents.)

You can't be held hostage by your mother at the expense of your siblings. You have so many relationships to develop for the long term with cousins and siblings after your parents are gone.

Plus 1.

Anonymous wrote: I don’t leave my kids alone with her for more than a couple hours. I want them to know their grandparents as long as they are on good behavior.

Honestly, if I were in your shoes, I'd visit my parents but not host them. Much easier to leave if they are no longer "on good behavior" than to kick them out. (And I would get a hotel room when I visited.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would you want to enable your mother to dump her feelings on others and ruin a holiday for everyone else? She's responsible for managing her behavior and she gets to deal with the consequences of when she doesn't. And if you feel guilty about this, then you're still too emeshed with caring for her emotions.

THIS! You are not a "good girl" for worrying about abusive mommy's feelings. You need help. Why do you care more about a perp than about the victim?

In my family the daughter who is most enmeshed with abusive mommy likes to think of herself as a saint for caring so much. She cannot comprehend why her own daughter considers her abusive. She didn't break the pattern because she was too enmeshed and now she risks estrangement with with her own daughter.

I completely agree. I can't fathom why you would even consider saying anything to sibling 1 about this. Why would you ask someone who has made a break from their abuser to include that abuser at an event in their home! This abuser has a history of ruining events for others. What is wrong with you?! Get thee to therapy!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, you don't ask the other sibling to invite someone she is estranged from, mother or not. She's hosting and gets to invite who she wants.

OP here. This is what I figured. Should I not even bring it up? It’s a touchy subject. I guess I just feel guilty but don’t blame sibling for how they got to this point.

Bring it up to your mother? Yes, I would. I 'd give her a heads up now about your plans. If she tries to make you feel guilty just let her know your plans are confirmed and that you are not going to get in the middle of the situation between her and your sister. You have no reason to feel guilty about anything. I understand that she's still your mother, but she does not sound like a good person.

Anonymous wrote:OP, please get help. You are asking if an abuser should be included. You feel guilty not including an abuser. This is really concerning behavior. You need to work through some of this so you too can be a cycle breaker.

This. In no scenario should you bring this up with sibling 1 or even consider why/ how your parents could be included. You see your parents and you do NOT need to spend e eye holiday with them (aren’t you with your in-laws sometime?). If you are still dealing with issues around guilt, then I highly recommend you work through those feelings with a therapist. And stop leaving your kids alone with them for “a few hours.” Not worth it.

Just tell them, “We’re working on our holiday plans for later this year. We would love to see you sometime around Christmas. Let’s discuss what might work for both of our schedules.”

Your mom: “What about Thanksgiving?”

You: “We can’t do Thanksgiving and Christmas this year. We are going to Susie’s house. So what works better for you - coming here for Christmas Day or the weekend after?”

Anonymous wrote:Why would you want to enable your mother to dump her feelings on others and ruin a holiday for everyone else? She's responsible for managing her behavior and she gets to deal with the consequences of when she doesn't. And if you feel guilty about this, then you're still too emeshed with caring for her emotions.

THIS! You are not a "good girl" for worrying about abusive mommy's feelings. You need help. Why do you care more about a perp than about the victim?

In my family the daughter who is most enmeshed with abusive mommy likes to think of herself as a saint for caring so much. She cannot comprehend why her own daughter considers her abusive. She didn't break the pattern because she was too enmeshed and now she risks estrangement with with her own daughter.

Why would you want to enable your mother to dump her feelings on others and ruin a holiday for everyone else? She's responsible for managing her behavior and she gets to deal with the consequences of when she doesn't. And if you feel guilty about this, then you're still too emeshed with caring for her emotions.

If you typically spend Thanksgiving with your parents I think you need to let your parents know that this year you will not be with them but you do hope that they will come spend Christmas with you. Be very matter of fact about Thanksgiving. You are spending Thanksgiving with your siblings and will see your parents at Christmas. If you know your parents friends, and are comfortable you might suggest to your mom that she invite a few people over for Thanksgiving. We alternate holidays with my parents and my in-laws. After a few years I got to know the dynamics of my parents neighbors and figured out that there were a number of households that were all spending Thanksgiving at home. I suggested to my parents that they host for their neighbors. It has worked out great.

Anonymous wrote:There are 3 siblings, and we all live in different states from each other and from our parents. Sibling 1 is estranged from mom after a tumultuous upbringing with a lot of emotional abuse, toxicity, and alcohol abuse. Siblings 2 and 3 agree with sibling 1 wanting to be estranged from mom but choose to keep a surface-level relationship going. Siblings haven’t gotten together for over 2 years now because of pandemic and plan to do thanksgiving together. Sibling 1 offered to host. Should I ask sibling 1 to invite our parents to travel to their home and join us for the holiday? It will be awkward if our parents aren’t invited, but will surely also be awkward if they do choose to come. Our mom has a history and reputation for ruining holidays with her emotional outbursts. There are also grandchildren in the picture who would be at the gathering.

For those of you with similar family situations… what have you done about holidays? I want to see my siblings… it’s been 2 years and I haven’t met my niece yet. My parents visit frequently and have a relationship with my kids, but not with sibling 1’s kids. I think thanksgiving will be the most enjoyable if my parents don’t go, quite frankly, but I know they will be deeply hurt so I feel guilty about getting together with my siblings if they aren’t invited.

This last sentence is quite concerning. Basically you admit that your mother ruins holidays for everyone, but you avoiding your guilt about not inviting them is more important. Therefore, your sibling 1 and everyone else should have a crappy holiday as long as you don't have to face your feelings of guilt.

What does your therapist say about that? If you don't have one, I'd look into why. This is no way to function.

OP, please get help. You are asking if an abuser should be included. You feel guilty not including an abuser. This is really concerning behavior. You need to work through some of this so you too can be a cycle breaker.