Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:upper middle class has more education (advanced degrees), more money and more refined tastes. if you meet all 3 criteria you are a good example/safely in that category. many people are borderline. like, a surgeon who makes a lot of money but listens to country music and eats at applebees vs. a low paying adjunct with a harvard phd etc.

What is upper middle class music?

Plenty of upper middle class people listen to country music. It’s the default music of a large swath of this country. Similarly, hip hop.

it is precisely the fact that a lot of Americans listen to country music that makes it not acceptable in the upper classes. so this does not show what you think it shows.

it is true that large numbers of umc people listen to mass music but this is only possible when they have other class markers. You can’t go to community college AND listen to country music AND work as a nurse AND drink soda. it’s like DSM - you need to meet a certain number of criteria to get a diagnosis but not everyone meets the same ones.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Years ago somebody posted on DCUM a link to a story about an academic who studies class. I can't find it now, maybe somebody else remembers. The point was that money was only one element of class; he had sort of a grid or ladder to explain it that also encompassed profession and education and maybe other factors.

We're not very good about discussing class in the U.S. We make it about money or sometimes race. Social distinctions based on education, manner of speech, dress, tastes in entertainment, and things like that are contrary to our self-image as a country that left social class back in the Old Country. Here in America, we are a class free meritocracy. But race and money don't tell the whole story. Who is more middle class: the dirt poor graduate student pursuing a PhD in literature or the high school dropout with poor, uneducated parents who made a bundle with a chain of car washes? If it helps underscore the point, make the graduate student a first generation immigrant from South Asia and the dropout a white dude whose family has been here for generations. When we talk about poor immigrants versus rich white dudes, we don't really get at this class issue.

This is well said and covers quite a lot. I'd add two things.

First, that part of what the class feee meritocracy myth leads to is the fact that something like 80% of Americans consider themselves "middle class." It's nearly meaningless as a self-identifier. Poorer and working class people don't want to think of themselves as that way-- at least not more than temporarily-- and wealthier people feel defensive and weird about admitting they have so much more than others. In fact, most people don't understand how close or far from the middle they are, and tend to assume that most people live more or less as they do. DCUM is Exhibit A for this, on the upper end. A lot of posts that read to me like the UMC version of "It's one banana, Michael. How much could it cost? $10?"

Second, the sort of idealized middle class is frozen in a time that has long since passed-- to the extent it ever was available to people based on race and other factors. The IDEA of middle class tends to be that you are not living paycheck to paycheck, you have a secure job and income, you can afford to buy a home and 1-2 cars, take a week's vacation or more to a place you might even have to fly to, and send your kids (2) to college without loans if they choose it, at least a state school. And maybe you can even just live off of one of those incomes.

Based on the current range of incomes and experiences, this is not usually achievable for most of the middle, say, 35-65th percentile. Class is definitely more complicated than disposable income and so on... but I'd say the above are now mostly markers of the UMC and wealthier. But I think think the UMC and wealthier don't realize this. They think this makes them MC instead of UMC+. And apparently, the wealthy think they can't be wealthy until they own private jets.

Anonymous wrote:Years ago somebody posted on DCUM a link to a story about an academic who studies class. I can't find it now, maybe somebody else remembers. The point was that money was only one element of class; he had sort of a grid or ladder to explain it that also encompassed profession and education and maybe other factors.

Here's one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class:_A_Guide_Through_the_American_Status_System

And if you want more, here's a recent reading list of books on class, especially on the " Professional-Managerical Class and the managerial elite"
https://twitter.com/pmarca/status/1520882193538580480

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What differentiates the upper middle class from the regular middle class?

A lot of the people who claim to be upper middle class seem to be simply rich to me.

What is the difference?

It’s upper middle because you can do all the things the middle class can’t but also not enough to put you in the ultra net worth category. You aren’t traveling by private jet. The foreign lands is still budgeted for. Assuming you haven’t saved enough, if you quit tomorrow, you’d be in trouble. You are not independent to just be wealthy.

No. You don't have to have a private jet to be wealthy, FFS! That's ultra wealthy, or whatever you want to call it.

I agree that class is very complicated and not just a function of HHI, or even HHI adjusted for COL. There's a language to it, an ability to access things, etc. A Medical Student with almost no income is not exactly working class by dint of that income, for example.

But I'm going to go ahead and call it-- by all accounts $400k+ HHI is out of upper middle class and into upper class/wealthy. It doesn't matter if it doesn't "feel" wealthy to you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It used to be that lower middle class people were in the trades like plumber, electrician, nurse - ‘blue collar’ workers

And Upper middle class were college educated professional ‘white collar’ workers.

At some point, people stated only associating in with income. So, upper middle class is wherever you draw that line. I do think many on here confuse UMC with lower rich. For example, private school is mainly a rich people thing that many on DCUM think is UMC- same for nearly yearly vacations to foreign lands.

So, in your educated opinion, lawyers and bankers didn't traditionally send their children to private school?

I suspect that the majority of lawyers and bankers in the US still don’t send their kids to private schools. I have friends from law school all over the country, and most of them send their kids to (very good) public schools.

I grew up in a city of about 50,000 people in Indiana where everyone, rich and poor, ended up in the same public high school. It's not like it was all white either. I think about 1/3 of the student body was black. I went to college across the border at Miami (OH), and I was a little surprised to learn how many of the students there had gone to private schools. Most of them seemed to be from the suburbs of Cleveland and Cincinnati where private schools (mostly Catholic) was where white people who could afford it sent their kids. The threshold for affording it didn't seem to be all that high. The kids who went to Moeller in the northeast part of Cincinnati didn't seem all that well-to-do.

Anonymous wrote:Years ago somebody posted on DCUM a link to a story about an academic who studies class. I can't find it now, maybe somebody else remembers. The point was that money was only one element of class; he had sort of a grid or ladder to explain it that also encompassed profession and education and maybe other factors.

We're not very good about discussing class in the U.S. We make it about money or sometimes race. Social distinctions based on education, manner of speech, dress, tastes in entertainment, and things like that are contrary to our self-image as a country that left social class back in the Old Country. Here in America, we are a class free meritocracy. But race and money don't tell the whole story. Who is more middle class: the dirt poor graduate student pursuing a PhD in literature or the high school dropout with poor, uneducated parents who made a bundle with a chain of car washes? If it helps underscore the point, make the graduate student a first generation immigrant from South Asia and the dropout a white dude whose family has been here for generations. When we talk about poor immigrants versus rich white dudes, we don't really get at this class issue.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It used to be that lower middle class people were in the trades like plumber, electrician, nurse - ‘blue collar’ workers

And Upper middle class were college educated professional ‘white collar’ workers.

At some point, people stated only associating in with income. So, upper middle class is wherever you draw that line. I do think many on here confuse UMC with lower rich. For example, private school is mainly a rich people thing that many on DCUM think is UMC- same for nearly yearly vacations to foreign lands.

So, in your educated opinion, lawyers and bankers didn't traditionally send their children to private school?

I suspect that the majority of lawyers and bankers in the US still don’t send their kids to private schools. I have friends from law school all over the country, and most of them send their kids to (very good) public schools.

So quasi private schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It used to be that lower middle class people were in the trades like plumber, electrician, nurse - ‘blue collar’ workers

And Upper middle class were college educated professional ‘white collar’ workers.

At some point, people stated only associating in with income. So, upper middle class is wherever you draw that line. I do think many on here confuse UMC with lower rich. For example, private school is mainly a rich people thing that many on DCUM think is UMC- same for nearly yearly vacations to foreign lands.

So, in your educated opinion, lawyers and bankers didn't traditionally send their children to private school?

I suspect that the majority of lawyers and bankers in the US still don’t send their kids to private schools. I have friends from law school all over the country, and most of them send their kids to (very good) public schools.

Anonymous wrote:It used to be that lower middle class people were in the trades like plumber, electrician, nurse - ‘blue collar’ workers

And Upper middle class were college educated professional ‘white collar’ workers.

At some point, people stated only associating in with income. So, upper middle class is wherever you draw that line. I do think many on here confuse UMC with lower rich. For example, private school is mainly a rich people thing that many on DCUM think is UMC- same for nearly yearly vacations to foreign lands.

So, in your educated opinion, lawyers and bankers didn't traditionally send their children to private school?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:upper middle class has more education (advanced degrees), more money and more refined tastes. if you meet all 3 criteria you are a good example/safely in that category. many people are borderline. like, a surgeon who makes a lot of money but listens to country music and eats at applebees vs. a low paying adjunct with a harvard phd etc.

What is upper middle class music?

Plenty of upper middle class people listen to country music. It’s the default music of a large swath of this country. Similarly, hip hop.

Anonymous wrote:upper middle class has more education (advanced degrees), more money and more refined tastes. if you meet all 3 criteria you are a good example/safely in that category. many people are borderline. like, a surgeon who makes a lot of money but listens to country music and eats at applebees vs. a low paying adjunct with a harvard phd etc.

LOL! No.

Anonymous wrote:upper middle class has more education (advanced degrees), more money and more refined tastes. if you meet all 3 criteria you are a good example/safely in that category. many people are borderline. like, a surgeon who makes a lot of money but listens to country music and eats at applebees vs. a low paying adjunct with a harvard phd etc.

What is upper middle class music?

upper middle class has more education (advanced degrees), more money and more refined tastes. if you meet all 3 criteria you are a good example/safely in that category. many people are borderline. like, a surgeon who makes a lot of money but listens to country music and eats at applebees vs. a low paying adjunct with a harvard phd etc.

Anonymous wrote:It used to be that lower middle class people were in the trades like plumber, electrician, nurse - ‘blue collar’ workers

And Upper middle class were college educated professional ‘white collar’ workers.

At some point, people stated only associating in with income. So, upper middle class is wherever you draw that line. I do think many on here confuse UMC with lower rich. For example, private school is mainly a rich people thing that many on DCUM think is UMC- same for nearly yearly vacations to foreign lands.

Lol you thought that nurses weren’t educated??

Anonymous wrote:It used to be that lower middle class people were in the trades like plumber, electrician, nurse - ‘blue collar’ workers

And Upper middle class were college educated professional ‘white collar’ workers.

At some point, people stated only associating in with income. So, upper middle class is wherever you draw that line. I do think many on here confuse UMC with lower rich. For example, private school is mainly a rich people thing that many on DCUM think is UMC- same for nearly yearly vacations to foreign lands.

I am a second career nurse. I had a graduate degree in another area I worked in for over a decade. The thing I've noticed about nurses is that older generations were/are married to more blue collar workers (cops, firefighters, etc) and my generation and younger (at least in the DMV) are all married to IT, government contractors, etc.