Anonymous wrote:Harvard, for example, as it’s average career salary 10 years out listed as being in the six figures. But that does not mean your child will have access to the jobs that yield that. Your normal Larla doesn’t have a job waiting for her at the family’s hedge fund when she graduates from Harvard like, at one point, most of Harvard students did.

No, but don't discount the friend groups they make. My husband grew up dirt poor and went to a prestigious private University with aid. His best friend since Freshmen year's family had connections and that is how he obtained his first job out of college... which then launched his independent career by his own hard work. But--in a very tight job market those connections certainly helped.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is another factor. For a while I was very involved with new college graduates recruited at my work for an executive training program, and I went through this program myself. I guess our screening was pretty good - all the young adults were very bright, hard working, conscientious, etc.; we barely had any bad apples. And in the first few years they all performed equally well regardless of where they went to school. The differences started showing up about 3 years out. The ones who grew up privileged had an easier time talking to higher ups, making their points, shmoozing at happy hours and so on, and they ended up being promoted faster. I know that some people are able to absorb it simply by being around those who grew up privileged, but many can't.

That could be private school, it could also be having the ability to take risks because losing a job wouldn't be catastrophic. Someone who needs a job is much more likely to keep their heads down and work hard than someone who don't actually need the job.

+1
I am in academic medicine in a top 10 medical school, and come from a middle class background.
Most of the doctors who rocket through the ranks are independently wealthy. They are, of course, smart and hard-working, but truly no better than others.
I remarked on this to my boss (who is also from a wealthy family), and he said that the higher-ups definitely prefer to promote people from money - or at least people with parents who are eminent scientists or doctors. He says that people from these backgrounds are often very polished from time spent in private schools and interacting with high-powered people from birth, are well connected, and are more likely to take big risks that have big pay-offs because they have what he called “eff you money”. He also said that he thought they made for a better impression on the med students and residents - for instance, we would invite the trainees to our houses for end of the year parties, but we couldn’t use my small townhouse (which is what you can buy on a doctor’s salary if your parents don’t kick in the down payment) because it was - according to my boss - “embarrassing.”

At least my boss is a thoughtful guy and just said the quiet part out loud. I appreciated that. But it also means that I will likely be a foot-soldier not a star - unless I get a break due to timing, which is also critically important.

It's the ability to take risks but more than that--the personality that takes risks and also having the "it factor." People rise really far and fast in medicine, business, etc because they have confidence, magnetism, the ability to manage others, the ability to function on very little sleep, etc. I'm also in medicine and attended a top 3 residency program where almost all my former colleagues are now leaders in industry, hospital CEOs, deans of medical schools, etc. They all have a combination of these qualities besides being baseline very smart.
Any of these intangibles are often hereditary.

I’m the previous academic medicine poster. I have been a student and faculty member at top-tier schools for over 20 years. I disagree that leaders in academic medicine (at least at the 3 institutions where I trained/worked) have magnetism or the ability to manage others well. And tolerance of sleep deprivation doesn’t really matter at the faculty level - or even at the trainee level. In fact, I have seen some really sociopathic and destructive behavior from our leadership. Although when we let the whole situation shake out, it often turns out that the leadership stands to get some money if they make decisions that seem insane on a superficial level.

If you are going to succeed wildly, the rise through the ranks must start early. The “chosen ones” get chosen when they are not fully formed. No one really knows what kind of leader they will be. It is based on their reputation - which is often based on parents or pedigree or obvious family wealth. For instance, we are occasionally pulled aside and told to pay special attention to or go easy on particular residents - usually followed by “I trained with her dad” or “his father is part of the (famous family)” or “I envision her as a leader and want her to have time to finish her research and have a good impression of our Division.”

Now confidence - THAT I agree they have. They have been told since they were little that they went to the best schools, come from a long line of brilliant doctors, etc. Frequently, however, this confidence is premature, and those of us who work for them suffer. I sound so cynical, but that’s 25 years of middle class public school kid experience talking.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is another factor. For a while I was very involved with new college graduates recruited at my work for an executive training program, and I went through this program myself. I guess our screening was pretty good - all the young adults were very bright, hard working, conscientious, etc.; we barely had any bad apples. And in the first few years they all performed equally well regardless of where they went to school. The differences started showing up about 3 years out. The ones who grew up privileged had an easier time talking to higher ups, making their points, shmoozing at happy hours and so on, and they ended up being promoted faster. I know that some people are able to absorb it simply by being around those who grew up privileged, but many can't.

Will attending private schools give a middle class kid the confidence and social skills that privileged kids often have? This is a big part of what I hope my child will get from attending private schools. I am foolish to expect this?

Both come from the environment that the kids are raised in. There are plenty of rich kids in public schools with the same confidence and skills.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is another factor. For a while I was very involved with new college graduates recruited at my work for an executive training program, and I went through this program myself. I guess our screening was pretty good - all the young adults were very bright, hard working, conscientious, etc.; we barely had any bad apples. And in the first few years they all performed equally well regardless of where they went to school. The differences started showing up about 3 years out. The ones who grew up privileged had an easier time talking to higher ups, making their points, shmoozing at happy hours and so on, and they ended up being promoted faster. I know that some people are able to absorb it simply by being around those who grew up privileged, but many can't.

That could be private school, it could also be having the ability to take risks because losing a job wouldn't be catastrophic. Someone who needs a job is much more likely to keep their heads down and work hard than someone who don't actually need the job.

+1
I am in academic medicine in a top 10 medical school, and come from a middle class background.
Most of the doctors who rocket through the ranks are independently wealthy. They are, of course, smart and hard-working, but truly no better than others.
I remarked on this to my boss (who is also from a wealthy family), and he said that the higher-ups definitely prefer to promote people from money - or at least people with parents who are eminent scientists or doctors. He says that people from these backgrounds are often very polished from time spent in private schools and interacting with high-powered people from birth, are well connected, and are more likely to take big risks that have big pay-offs because they have what he called “eff you money”. He also said that he thought they made for a better impression on the med students and residents - for instance, we would invite the trainees to our houses for end of the year parties, but we couldn’t use my small townhouse (which is what you can buy on a doctor’s salary if your parents don’t kick in the down payment) because it was - according to my boss - “embarrassing.”

At least my boss is a thoughtful guy and just said the quiet part out loud. I appreciated that. But it also means that I will likely be a foot-soldier not a star - unless I get a break due to timing, which is also critically important.

It is rare to see the effects of social class in America described this clearly. I guess you either accept it or choose a field where it is not a factor. Large parts of the business world are like that but in the upper reaches of finance, consulting, and big business family background has a big effect.

Anonymous wrote:There is another factor. For a while I was very involved with new college graduates recruited at my work for an executive training program, and I went through this program myself. I guess our screening was pretty good - all the young adults were very bright, hard working, conscientious, etc.; we barely had any bad apples. And in the first few years they all performed equally well regardless of where they went to school. The differences started showing up about 3 years out. The ones who grew up privileged had an easier time talking to higher ups, making their points, shmoozing at happy hours and so on, and they ended up being promoted faster. I know that some people are able to absorb it simply by being around those who grew up privileged, but many can't.

Will attending private schools give a middle class kid the confidence and social skills that privileged kids often have? This is a big part of what I hope my child will get from attending private schools. I am foolish to expect this?

I went to private school and my career is also crap OP, mainly because I also followed my passion. And because I had middle class parents who could earn enough money to send me to private school but had no idea how to advise me academically or even emotionally.

I've seen, with my fellow private school graduates, it's the combination of educated, emotionally aware involved parents and money (but not so much money that the student can afford to buy drugs and party all the time.)

Rich kids are usually tall and thin, which helps.

To the residency poster:

You can’t get into a top med school without research experience. To get top research experience, you generally to go to a top undergrad school. To get into a top undergrad school as a STEM major, you generally need some high school research experience. To get that you need connections.


It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Anonymous wrote:Over and over again I read about someone in the news whose career I admire, and with internet sleuthing I discover they went to private school.

This was about Will Gaybrick, CPO at Stripe, studied math at Harvard and was a student of STA.

https://www.stalbansschool.org/news-detail?pk=1270016

I went to an Ivy too, also in a hard science, but my career is cr@p, mostly because of following my passion coming out of college in an idealistic way.

I run into alums who have great careers and I see they went to independent schools; but hard to differentiate from that longer rigorous schooling, network effects of independent schools, and family wealth/connection?

OP, I'd say that its not necessarily " wealth" of parents in terms of dollars, but that what is in play here is that all parents try to pass on their " life lessons" to the benefit of their offspring to pave the way for their " mini me" to take their life one step further in professional/ personal achievement . Now, perhaps an offspring won't be interested in that kind of help or perhaps their passion will lead them in a direction that a parent's connections cannot assist, but when career choice and parent connections align : presto- the outcome is often:

( just listing the kind of nepotism I have seen ):

* Parents are in the POUTS Cabinet or parent's BFF is in Cabinet- offspring is nominated for an under secretary of State position and is confirmed

* Parent is high up in DoS/ CIA- SIL gets tapped to run newly formed post- 9/11 Gov't agency

* High level DOJ Atty kid gets clerkship at SCOTUS

Its not the Private school that they went to, the kid was admitted to that Private because of the parents and then those parents continue to curate their offspring's career post- college

It's an aspect of inter-generational wealth. Now, again, a kid might be a dud or just want to be an artist ...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is another factor. For a while I was very involved with new college graduates recruited at my work for an executive training program, and I went through this program myself. I guess our screening was pretty good - all the young adults were very bright, hard working, conscientious, etc.; we barely had any bad apples. And in the first few years they all performed equally well regardless of where they went to school. The differences started showing up about 3 years out. The ones who grew up privileged had an easier time talking to higher ups, making their points, shmoozing at happy hours and so on, and they ended up being promoted faster. I know that some people are able to absorb it simply by being around those who grew up privileged, but many can't.

That could be private school, it could also be having the ability to take risks because losing a job wouldn't be catastrophic. Someone who needs a job is much more likely to keep their heads down and work hard than someone who don't actually need the job.

+1
I am in academic medicine in a top 10 medical school, and come from a middle class background.
Most of the doctors who rocket through the ranks are independently wealthy. They are, of course, smart and hard-working, but truly no better than others.
I remarked on this to my boss (who is also from a wealthy family), and he said that the higher-ups definitely prefer to promote people from money - or at least people with parents who are eminent scientists or doctors. He says that people from these backgrounds are often very polished from time spent in private schools and interacting with high-powered people from birth, are well connected, and are more likely to take big risks that have big pay-offs because they have what he called “eff you money”. He also said that he thought they made for a better impression on the med students and residents - for instance, we would invite the trainees to our houses for end of the year parties, but we couldn’t use my small townhouse (which is what you can buy on a doctor’s salary if your parents don’t kick in the down payment) because it was - according to my boss - “embarrassing.”

At least my boss is a thoughtful guy and just said the quiet part out loud. I appreciated that. But it also means that I will likely be a foot-soldier not a star - unless I get a break due to timing, which is also critically important.

It's the ability to take risks but more than that--the personality that takes risks and also having the "it factor." People rise really far and fast in medicine, business, etc because they have confidence, magnetism, the ability to manage others, the ability to function on very little sleep, etc. I'm also in medicine and attended a top 3 residency program where almost all my former colleagues are now leaders in industry, hospital CEOs, deans of medical schools, etc. They all have a combination of these qualities besides being baseline very smart.
Any of these intangibles are often hereditary.

YES! With the limited financial aid the local DC independent schools offer, the vast majority of students come from families that can drop $40,000+ every year without worrying about their financial security. You either make a lot of money, have some significant wealth, or grandparents footing the bill. So from any median income (in DC, that's $90-100,000) family's perspective, these schools are obviously for wealthy/rich/high income families. But, the lifestyles of these families is "typical upper middle class." It's usually a beach house in Rehoboth, not Nantucket. A $2 million house in Bethesda that might be plainer than a $700,000 house in the exurbs. Shopping for most things at Amazon, Costco and Target like everyone else.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is another factor. For a while I was very involved with new college graduates recruited at my work for an executive training program, and I went through this program myself. I guess our screening was pretty good - all the young adults were very bright, hard working, conscientious, etc.; we barely had any bad apples. And in the first few years they all performed equally well regardless of where they went to school. The differences started showing up about 3 years out. The ones who grew up privileged had an easier time talking to higher ups, making their points, shmoozing at happy hours and so on, and they ended up being promoted faster. I know that some people are able to absorb it simply by being around those who grew up privileged, but many can't.

That could be private school, it could also be having the ability to take risks because losing a job wouldn't be catastrophic. Someone who needs a job is much more likely to keep their heads down and work hard than someone who don't actually need the job.

+1
I am in academic medicine in a top 10 medical school, and come from a middle class background.
Most of the doctors who rocket through the ranks are independently wealthy. They are, of course, smart and hard-working, but truly no better than others.
I remarked on this to my boss (who is also from a wealthy family), and he said that the higher-ups definitely prefer to promote people from money - or at least people with parents who are eminent scientists or doctors. He says that people from these backgrounds are often very polished from time spent in private schools and interacting with high-powered people from birth, are well connected, and are more likely to take big risks that have big pay-offs because they have what he called “eff you money”. He also said that he thought they made for a better impression on the med students and residents - for instance, we would invite the trainees to our houses for end of the year parties, but we couldn’t use my small townhouse (which is what you can buy on a doctor’s salary if your parents don’t kick in the down payment) because it was - according to my boss - “embarrassing.”

At least my boss is a thoughtful guy and just said the quiet part out loud. I appreciated that. But it also means that I will likely be a foot-soldier not a star - unless I get a break due to timing, which is also critically important.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is another factor. For a while I was very involved with new college graduates recruited at my work for an executive training program, and I went through this program myself. I guess our screening was pretty good - all the young adults were very bright, hard working, conscientious, etc.; we barely had any bad apples. And in the first few years they all performed equally well regardless of where they went to school. The differences started showing up about 3 years out. The ones who grew up privileged had an easier time talking to higher ups, making their points, shmoozing at happy hours and so on, and they ended up being promoted faster. I know that some people are able to absorb it simply by being around those who grew up privileged, but many can't.

That could be private school, it could also be having the ability to take risks because losing a job wouldn't be catastrophic. Someone who needs a job is much more likely to keep their heads down and work hard than someone who don't actually need the job.

+1

I agree. Knowing you have a safety net is a big reason why some people are comfortable speaking out at work or taking a riskier paying job at a start up or unpaid internships. I did not use my voice at work until my student loans were paid off and I have an emergency fund and I was always in fear of losing my job.

I think coming from a wealthy family and going to private schools are both just useful safety nets. I don't personally think it's quality of education because while some independent schools have truly rigorous academics, plenty do not. And even those with very strong academics often have rampant grade inflation. It's one of the many catch 22s of private education -- your students are also your customers, and how do you fail a customer?

But if you assume all people are going to make some mistakes and encounter some bad luck in life, the more safety nets the better. If you have a rich family, that's a useful safety net that can help pick you up. Say you have the bad luck to graduate into a down jobs economy, plus you make the mistake of slacking off for a while year of college and it drags down your GPA. For a middle class person, that might be enough to lock you into a dead-end job and severely limit job potential. But if your parents are rich, you can probably find a graduate program somewhere that will take you (maybe with their help, maybe just because a person who can afford to pay out of pocket for graduate school can always find a program somewhere) and then be able to enter the workforce a couple years better with superior economics and an additional degree. Useful.

And independent schools are the same. The network can't be underestimated, especially if you are willing to stay in the geographic region where there are likely to be many alums. It can make the difference between getting an interview or not, making the interview more enjoyable or connecting with the interviewer, etc. Also, graduates of independent schools have a leg up in terms of more elite careers because they are more likely to have met people in those fields at a young age, have learned some things about them, and be more comfortable with the culture and lingo. Those are intangibles but they can make a huge difference for someone interning in that field or going through entry-level interviews. It makes them stand out and feel more like they belong.

Ivy League degrees serve a similar function. So can just being physically attractive. There are lots of backstops to failure in life. But rich parents and private schools are pretty good ones. If you have these advantages, it's a rare obstacle that can best them. It's not impossible (especially if you have disadvantages like addiction, childhood trauma, and other problems that can impact people of any background), but it's much, much harder than it is for middle or working class graduates of average public schools.