https://modernstoicism.com/nope-jordan-peterson-aint-no-stoic-by-massimo-pigliucci/

I suspect this informs where OP is coming from

Anonymous wrote:I know a lot of young guys into stoicism and I’m not a fan. Instead of actually dealing with their feelings, emotions, and problems, they just stuff it down and get worse and worse. From my observations they just further isolate themselves, get more depressed, and start searching for answers in more extreme things like drugs, casual sex, isolation, etc.

I think it would be far better for men to embrace the so-called “feminine” aspects of being human - crying, expressing sadness, talking to people, helping others, listening to others, developing deep and loving relationships with both men and women, expressing love, being vulnerable, seeking connection beyond superficial things like sex or just hanging out with the bros.

Stoicism as practiced by Seneca and Marcus Aurelius doesn’t mean to hold in your feelings. That’s just not it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Raising feminist boys to become feminist men does not begin with letting them listen to anything from Jordan Peterson.

Imagine your main goal in life being to raise a feminist boy lol

Dear God, please let the boys make their own choices or you’ll stifle their true nature. Guide them towards goodness, but please don’t foist your own persona on theirs.

Yeah, I have two boys. People are individuals. I'm raising them to treat individuals fairly, regardless of their gender.

??? What???

You think it’s okay to raise anybody that thinks women are not equal and should not be viewed as equal?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Raising feminist boys to become feminist men does not begin with letting them listen to anything from Jordan Peterson.

Imagine your main goal in life being to raise a feminist boy lol

Dear God, please let the boys make their own choices or you’ll stifle their true nature. Guide them towards goodness, but please don’t foist your own persona on theirs.

Yeah, I have two boys. People are individuals. I'm raising them to treat individuals fairly, regardless of their gender.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Raising feminist boys to become feminist men does not begin with letting them listen to anything from Jordan Peterson.

Imagine your main goal in life being to raise a feminist boy lol

Dear God, please let the boys make their own choices or you’ll stifle their true nature. Guide them towards goodness, but please don’t foist your own persona on theirs.

Op writes about men going their own way, stoicism and the red pill etc.

I think the concept of Stoicism as a means of self control has merit. In fact you’re getting the opinion of a white married man right now, so you can take what I’m saying with as many grains of salt as you want.

Everyone is seeking self growth. Obviously women are doing better than men, and eclipsing them when it comes to attaining higher education. However I think there’s a different reason than men are drawn to Jordan Peterson or people like Joe Rogan. They espouse this sort of armchair psychology expert bs they spew to their followers. Joe Rogan basically has a podcast and talks about taking psychedelics mixed martial arts and then I guess kind of subtle racism by the way he talked about Black people in the past.

Jordan Peterson has some nuggets of wisdom but I think what he is saying is also a lot of right wing BS.

However, this is going to anger a lot of people, especially women, but I think espousing or using the tools of stoicism especially regarding confrontation to be very useful. I’m married and I know what it’s like to argue with a woman. I have been in relationships and known tons of women. I know what it’s like to argue with women. In many cases women argue more with emotion than on fact. Men will just recount endless facts in their arguments with women to try and sway the argument, but that’s a losing battle, because biologically an argument for a woman is more about how they feel and trying to convey those feelings, rather than what the actual argument itself was about. Men just want to keep arguments in the fact base realm.

When you see these “men going their own way” types of people, it’s probably because their wives stop sleeping with them as much and they’re trying to figure out a way to fix that, or probably because they’re tired of the way they get into arguments with their wives and how utterly absurd many arguments devolve. Stoicism essentially teaches that you don’t get into an unnecessary argument because it’s a stupid thing to do. Stoicism teaches to avoid an argument before it begins. I think that’s applicable to a lot of marital or relationship conflicts. For example if your wife’s having a bad day and nagging and putting out a bad vibe and just being generally unpleasant and sort of fishing for a fight, stoicism would teach the man in the relationship just to walk away let it cool down and don’t get into the argument because the argument itself would be based in emotion and not on fact.

So that’s my take on this whole thing. Also, people like Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson because they’re tired of this social justice warrior PC culture or whatever they call it thing where they feel there’s moral absolutism on the left preventing them from speaking their minds and these two people just go ahead and say what they want without fear of offending people. It’s actually everyone is a friend of these days of offending anyone else for fear of getting canceled and I think that Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson kind of shoot it straight in a more traditional sense to them.

Anonymous wrote:Raising feminist boys to become feminist men does not begin with letting them listen to anything from Jordan Peterson.

Imagine your main goal in life being to raise a feminist boy lol

I'm a 47 year old liberal woman and I'm totally down with stoicism. It's a great philosophy, especially if you aren't religious because it offers a great framework.

I'm also okay with Jordan Peterson. He can get blabby at times and I don't love everything he says but he's big on personal responsibility and morals. That's what I emphasize to my kids. His book was a wreck though. He's not a great writer.

OP, what specifically do you find objectionable about the philosophy overall?

Raising feminist boys to become feminist men does not begin with letting them listen to anything from Jordan Peterson.

The Germans are stoic.

Anonymous wrote:I know a lot of young guys into stoicism and I’m not a fan. Instead of actually dealing with their feelings, emotions, and problems, they just stuff it down and get worse and worse. From my observations they just further isolate themselves, get more depressed, and start searching for answers in more extreme things like drugs, casual sex, isolation, etc.

I think it would be far better for men to embrace the so-called “feminine” aspects of being human - crying, expressing sadness, talking to people, helping others, listening to others, developing deep and loving relationships with both men and women, expressing love, being vulnerable, seeking connection beyond superficial things like sex or just hanging out with the bros.

I think some of this is a problem with associating being emotionally "stoic" with philosophical stoicism. As a philosophy, Stoicism teaches that you have to discipline your own desires and cultivate certain virtues (self-control is a big one) as a path to human flourishing. Indulging in mindless sex and drugs isn't Stoicism, at all. Stoicism does believe that emotions are a bad guide to right action, it's more about staying grounded in moments of emotion rather than refusing to acknowledge the feelings at all. Seneca writes really wonderfully about the importance of connection with other people, too. I think the phenomena you're observing is real, but it's more about guys who've put the label "stoic" on something that isn't Stoicism.

I'm not a Stoic, but that's my understanding of the ideas, anyway.

Anonymous wrote:White men don't have a voice? That's an odd statement.

White women complaining

Anonymous wrote:I don't know if the two are connected.

I have become aware of the popularity of stoicism among young men, particularly young white educated men.

I find this so much better than MGTOW and red pill.

To me, it's a result of that population realizing they don't have a public voice. They have learned to be "stoic" and quiet. Why bother talking when everyone else is screaming their heads off?

Also, Jordan Peterson is a philosophy professor. He is very popular among younger college educated men as well.

What do you know about this?

Wut?

Anonymous wrote:His opinion should not be allowed.

Oh please, I don’t think anyone wants to suppress this clown. Stupidity isn’t dangerous, it’s just stupid. And whiny.

Anonymous wrote:What has following stoicism brought to you? Are you just quiet? Isn't that what it means to be stoic? Definition: a person who can endure pain or hardship without showing their feelings or complaining.

That is what I mean by younger white men not having a public voice. They either form movements that become dangerous and violent, like with the protests in Portland. Or they become stoic.

That makes no sense. The vast majority of young white men are fine.