Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is she paid well? Not just for her physical contribution but fur what you know, as someone who has given birth, can be a serious emotional upheaval as well? Like paid really, really, really well?

Is she doing this truly consensually with no weird power imbalances? Or is she a desperate woman in a desperate situation. You can (and should) heavily vet surrogacy agencies to find out how they recruit.

If the answer to the above is yes, and you have a *perfect* surrogacy contract, I think it can be done ethically. The contract has a lot of details you need to u sweat and though. I wouldn’t do it unless/until you have walked through and u d’état and every provision and why it is there.

Women still DIE from pregnancy and childbirth. Another person should risk their life bc OP doesn't want stretch marks??? Esp if the surrogate is a black women the odds are worse. Oh, wait. OP would never use a black surrogate never mind.

Roofers DIE from falling off a roof. Another person should risk their life because OP doesn’t want to do her own roofing? Many, many jobs entail risk, which is baked into the requirements for taking that job. Women who have had or are likely to have high-risk pregnancies do not qualify to be surrogates.

Stop paternalistically telling surrogates what they can and can’t do with their bodies. Trust women to make their own decisions.

You are comparing surrogacy to roofing. I can't even with you.

I'm not talking to surrogates or telling them what to do. I'm talking to OP who wants to not get pregnant for VANITY. That's disgusting and vile.

Why is it ethical for you to rent someone’s muscles, but not their uterus? Because it is her special sacred lady-place? I’m reminded of an article I read years ago about Indian surrogacy and some pious white foreigner asking a surrogate if she felt exploited. She laughed politely and said that her previous job had been literally breaking rocks, and that was exploitation.

Sorry I'm not comfortable commodifying human beings -- including the child. Blessed be the fruit.

Anonymous wrote:It’s interesting to me how upset people here are about OP‘s motivations, as if that has any impact on the morality of the act. I think that the morality comes from how you perform the act, not whether you were doing it from an “acceptable” set of motivations. You can have an unethical surrogacy that you entered into for medical reasons only. You can have an ethical surrogacy because the idea of being pregnant seems yucky to you.

The ethics in it are about how you treat the other person, not what your decision-making process to get there is.

This, exactly.

It’s interesting to me how upset people here are about OP‘s motivations, as if that has any impact on the morality of the act. I think that the morality comes from how you perform the act, not whether you were doing it from an “acceptable” set of motivations. You can have an unethical surrogacy that you entered into for medical reasons only. You can have an ethical surrogacy because the idea of being pregnant seems yucky to you.

The ethics in it are about how you treat the other person, not what your decision-making process to get there is.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you don’t have any medical reason to do so. I just don’t want to be pregnant again, gain weight and have to try to lose it again. have my body change permanently, give birth etc.

And I can easily afford a surrogate.

Would you do it in my situation?

It is immoral and you are amoral. If I were your husband, I would divorce you and get 100% custody of children and never allow you to see them again

You people are histrionic. And honestly I think this attitude is founded in misogyny. We can and do outsource absolutely every other aspect of the human experience, and for the most part none of that is considered immoral as long as all parties are consenting and the transaction is at arms length. But for some reason gestating a pregnancy is an absolute red line that we cannot ever cross - why? Interrogate why you think pregnancy and childbirth is such a sacred part of being a mother.

Also some thought experiments here to narrow down what you think the problem is:

- is it immoral for a gay male couple to use a surrogate to have a baby?
- is it immoral for a woman who cannot get pregnant to use a surrogate? what about a woman who could get pregnant but is at high risk for complications - is use of a surrogate immoral for her?
- is it immoral for a woman who cannot carry a pregnancy to have her own egg/embryo implanted into another woman for surrogacy?
- is it immoral for a woman who cannot produce viable eggs to use donor eggs to get pregnant?
- is it immoral for an intended mother to use donor sperm to get pregnant when her partner/intended father's sperm isn't viable?
- is it immoral for a single woman to use donor sperm to become a single mother on purpose?
- is it immoral to use donor eggs/sperm in situations where the intended parent may have viable reproductive sperm/eggs, but has a genetic condition or other issue that they don't want to pass on to their children?
- is adoption immoral?

There are a thousand other shades of grey questions in between, but if you think some of these situations are fine and others are "immoral", I urge you to think about why. What bright line rule can you articulate about what is moral when it comes to reproductive technology?

Wow, there is a lot of anger about this.

Nope, not unethical, just a choice on both sides and no one gets to decide that your reasons are not good enough. It's your choice and your body and your money.

I love this argument, such typical MURICAN thinking: well if you pay enough, that makes anything OK. Yuck.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The surrogate’s cells will be inside your baby’s body forever. Your baby’s cells will be in the surrogate’s forever as well. Google microchimerism.

1. This is a relatively rare phenomenon, so definitely not true for all women and babies. Especially not the "forever" part.

2. So what?

-1- it’s not rare — it is almost universal. It’s not a huge number of cells but autopsies suggest that bio moms have them until death.

-2- few labs study this, nobody understands what these cells are doing, but there are some pretty interesting ideas. You asked if it was ethical, so this is just another dimension to consider.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/bies.201500059

I'm struggling to see how this medical phenomenon impacts the question of morality.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is she paid well? Not just for her physical contribution but fur what you know, as someone who has given birth, can be a serious emotional upheaval as well? Like paid really, really, really well?

Is she doing this truly consensually with no weird power imbalances? Or is she a desperate woman in a desperate situation. You can (and should) heavily vet surrogacy agencies to find out how they recruit.

If the answer to the above is yes, and you have a *perfect* surrogacy contract, I think it can be done ethically. The contract has a lot of details you need to u sweat and though. I wouldn’t do it unless/until you have walked through and u d’état and every provision and why it is there.

Women still DIE from pregnancy and childbirth. Another person should risk their life bc OP doesn't want stretch marks??? Esp if the surrogate is a black women the odds are worse. Oh, wait. OP would never use a black surrogate never mind.

Roofers DIE from falling off a roof. Another person should risk their life because OP doesn’t want to do her own roofing? Many, many jobs entail risk, which is baked into the requirements for taking that job. Women who have had or are likely to have high-risk pregnancies do not qualify to be surrogates.

Stop paternalistically telling surrogates what they can and can’t do with their bodies. Trust women to make their own decisions.

You are comparing surrogacy to roofing. I can't even with you.

I'm not talking to surrogates or telling them what to do. I'm talking to OP who wants to not get pregnant for VANITY. That's disgusting and vile.

Why is it ethical for you to rent someone’s muscles, but not their uterus? Because it is her special sacred lady-place? I’m reminded of an article I read years ago about Indian surrogacy and some pious white foreigner asking a surrogate if she felt exploited. She laughed politely and said that her previous job had been literally breaking rocks, and that was exploitation.

I find it unethical. I wish we would stop fetishizing parenthood at all costs.

Anonymous wrote:If the surrogate is well compensated and not coerced (including indirect coercion due to financial need), sure. Some women actually enjoy being pregnant and view surrogacy as a blessing they can offer others. (I know women like this.)

People on this thread jumping right to racism and impugning your parenting ability are nuts, ignore them.

I agree with the rest of your post, but the bolded is a little silly. This is a job for the surrogate; the vast majority of people who perform surrogacy (or really, any services for money) do so because they need money. Under your framework, every employment contract is coerced.

Op, make sure you pay well, and treat your surrogate well. No need to twist yourself in knots over this.

Honestly I don't think it's a truly ethical choice to rent part of someone else's body. But if you're going to do it, make sure you pay extremely well. I think the going rates are far too low given what's asked of surrogate mothers.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is she paid well? Not just for her physical contribution but fur what you know, as someone who has given birth, can be a serious emotional upheaval as well? Like paid really, really, really well?

Is she doing this truly consensually with no weird power imbalances? Or is she a desperate woman in a desperate situation. You can (and should) heavily vet surrogacy agencies to find out how they recruit.

If the answer to the above is yes, and you have a *perfect* surrogacy contract, I think it can be done ethically. The contract has a lot of details you need to u sweat and though. I wouldn’t do it unless/until you have walked through and u d’état and every provision and why it is there.

Women still DIE from pregnancy and childbirth. Another person should risk their life bc OP doesn't want stretch marks??? Esp if the surrogate is a black women the odds are worse. Oh, wait. OP would never use a black surrogate never mind.

Roofers DIE from falling off a roof. Another person should risk their life because OP doesn’t want to do her own roofing? Many, many jobs entail risk, which is baked into the requirements for taking that job. Women who have had or are likely to have high-risk pregnancies do not qualify to be surrogates.

Stop paternalistically telling surrogates what they can and can’t do with their bodies. Trust women to make their own decisions.

You are comparing surrogacy to roofing. I can't even with you.

I'm not talking to surrogates or telling them what to do. I'm talking to OP who wants to not get pregnant for VANITY. That's disgusting and vile.

Anonymous wrote:If the surrogate is well compensated and not coerced (including indirect coercion due to financial need), sure. Some women actually enjoy being pregnant and view surrogacy as a blessing they can offer others. (I know women like this.)

People on this thread jumping right to racism and impugning your parenting ability are nuts, ignore them.

Many people and governments have decided paying the surrogate (other than medical and living costs) is unethical, in the same way that paying for a baby for adoption is unethical.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The surrogate’s cells will be inside your baby’s body forever. Your baby’s cells will be in the surrogate’s forever as well. Google microchimerism.

1. This is a relatively rare phenomenon, so definitely not true for all women and babies. Especially not the "forever" part.

2. So what?

-1- it’s not rare — it is almost universal. It’s not a huge number of cells but autopsies suggest that bio moms have them until death.

-2- few labs study this, nobody understands what these cells are doing, but there are some pretty interesting ideas. You asked if it was ethical, so this is just another dimension to consider.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/bies.201500059

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you don’t have any medical reason to do so. I just don’t want to be pregnant again, gain weight and have to try to lose it again. have my body change permanently, give birth etc.

And I can easily afford a surrogate.

Would you do it in my situation?

It is immoral and you are amoral. If I were your husband, I would divorce you and get 100% custody of children and never allow you to see them again

Why? Men outsource pregnancy every damn day and then complain that women are lazy takers and justify paying them less due to all the time off they choose to take… certainly no HUSBAND can claim the moral high ground here!

(For the record, OP, I do not think it’s particularly ethical to rent a woman’s body like that, but I certainly wouldn’t take any flak from a man over it)