Anonymous
11/29/2021 15:45
Subject: Re:Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Carolyn Hax can go either way for me, but I thought her response was spot on in this case. I was in a relationship where this was an issue. We could be arguing about the most simplistic thing (like, could you please clean up after yourself when you spill coffee on the kitchen counter?) and their response would always be defensive. Most of our arguments were derailed by their "off ramps" from the argument. It's a diversion tactic to move away from the issue at hand and change the narrative to where spouse becomes the victim, the actual issue is forgotten about, and the argument becomes about ME -- my tone, my timing of raising an issue while they're stressed from work (they're always stressed from work!), I'm not listening to their response... It's manipulative as hell.
Yes! (OP here) he gets defensive and then I have to make sure he's OK. Yes. He gets defensive and paints himself the victem, as if I really think he's the word person in the word.
I just thought he was insecure. But that's not it at all, is it? He's secure as hell and is manipulating me.
He's insecure AND he's manipulating you.
He's defensive because he really does feel like he did something wrong. He knows that he is supposed to clean up the coffee from the kitchen counter, and he feels bad about it. He can't handle the bad feeling on his own, so he makes you make him feel better.
So what to do about it?
Good question.
Yes, how do you make him realize that this is what he's doing? So many arguments from my husband stem from how offended/hurt/ashamed he is by whatever I have brought up for discussion, how my approach/tone/timing is inappropriate, that we never actually resolve anything. My DH does have ADHD and anxiety, he's in therapy himself. And, to be fair, sometimes my approach IS inappropriate. I get snappy or huffy. But from his perspective the issue is ALWAYS I'm snappy or huffy and we are completely diverted from whatever it is he could improve to once again, focus on me.
Anonymous
11/29/2021 15:31
Subject: Re:Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Carolyn Hax can go either way for me, but I thought her response was spot on in this case. I was in a relationship where this was an issue. We could be arguing about the most simplistic thing (like, could you please clean up after yourself when you spill coffee on the kitchen counter?) and their response would always be defensive. Most of our arguments were derailed by their "off ramps" from the argument. It's a diversion tactic to move away from the issue at hand and change the narrative to where spouse becomes the victim, the actual issue is forgotten about, and the argument becomes about ME -- my tone, my timing of raising an issue while they're stressed from work (they're always stressed from work!), I'm not listening to their response... It's manipulative as hell.
Yes! (OP here) he gets defensive and then I have to make sure he's OK. Yes. He gets defensive and paints himself the victem, as if I really think he's the word person in the word.
I just thought he was insecure. But that's not it at all, is it? He's secure as hell and is manipulating me.
He's insecure AND he's manipulating you.
He's defensive because he really does feel like he did something wrong. He knows that he is supposed to clean up the coffee from the kitchen counter, and he feels bad about it. He can't handle the bad feeling on his own, so he makes you make him feel better.
Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head (NP). I think too often marital advice is presented as one spouse is a criminal mastermind manipulator and the other a complete victim. It is usually more one spouse acts in unproductive or "manipulative" way out of guilt, insecurity, overwhelm, or very run-of-the-mill selfishness and the other one has to... well, deal with it in a way that is more productive. This does NOT mean accepting it as many other PPs have pointed out. But it does make devising a solution more difficult.
Anonymous
11/29/2021 15:21
Subject: Re:Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Carolyn Hax can go either way for me, but I thought her response was spot on in this case. I was in a relationship where this was an issue. We could be arguing about the most simplistic thing (like, could you please clean up after yourself when you spill coffee on the kitchen counter?) and their response would always be defensive. Most of our arguments were derailed by their "off ramps" from the argument. It's a diversion tactic to move away from the issue at hand and change the narrative to where spouse becomes the victim, the actual issue is forgotten about, and the argument becomes about ME -- my tone, my timing of raising an issue while they're stressed from work (they're always stressed from work!), I'm not listening to their response... It's manipulative as hell.
Yes! (OP here) he gets defensive and then I have to make sure he's OK. Yes. He gets defensive and paints himself the victem, as if I really think he's the word person in the word.
I just thought he was insecure. But that's not it at all, is it? He's secure as hell and is manipulating me.
He's insecure AND he's manipulating you.
He's defensive because he really does feel like he did something wrong. He knows that he is supposed to clean up the coffee from the kitchen counter, and he feels bad about it. He can't handle the bad feeling on his own, so he makes you make him feel better.
So what to do about it?
Good question.
Anonymous
11/29/2021 14:58
Subject: Re:Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Carolyn Hax can go either way for me, but I thought her response was spot on in this case. I was in a relationship where this was an issue. We could be arguing about the most simplistic thing (like, could you please clean up after yourself when you spill coffee on the kitchen counter?) and their response would always be defensive. Most of our arguments were derailed by their "off ramps" from the argument. It's a diversion tactic to move away from the issue at hand and change the narrative to where spouse becomes the victim, the actual issue is forgotten about, and the argument becomes about ME -- my tone, my timing of raising an issue while they're stressed from work (they're always stressed from work!), I'm not listening to their response... It's manipulative as hell.
Yes! (OP here) he gets defensive and then I have to make sure he's OK. Yes. He gets defensive and paints himself the victem, as if I really think he's the word person in the word.
I just thought he was insecure. But that's not it at all, is it? He's secure as hell and is manipulating me.
He's insecure AND he's manipulating you.
He's defensive because he really does feel like he did something wrong. He knows that he is supposed to clean up the coffee from the kitchen counter, and he feels bad about it. He can't handle the bad feeling on his own, so he makes you make him feel better.
So what to do about it?
Anonymous
11/29/2021 14:56
Subject: Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Hax is a freak. She went the same route Paltrow did. Thinks she's a disciple or something. And she hates men.
First or second marriage. I read her decades ago before there was Internet. I remember her walking out on the first husband but they didn’t have kids. Did she divorce the one she had kids with?
It's at least her second. Maybe the third.
I remember when she used to do an online live chats on Friday afternoons. Her responses (off the cuff, mind you, no chance to prepare) were so preachy and entitled. It was total cringe. And her posture was always that men were shitty and that women were inherently better, yet always victiimzed.
I wonder what her relationship with her father was like.
1) She's on her 2nd marriage.
2) I don't believe she "walked out" on her first husband any more than he "walked out" on her. They parted amicably. They still work together.
3) Kids are with second marriage.
4) She started her column in 1997 which wasn't decades before the internet, because I was using the Internet at that time.
5) I have not found her to be biased in favor of women over men.
Anonymous
11/29/2021 14:22
Subject: Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
I read that article, and what rang out loud and clear to me was that the DH needed to be screened for anxiety and ADHD. Untreated/undiagnosed ADHD in stressful times (aka a new baby’s arrival) can look a lot like what’s described.
Anonymous
11/29/2021 14:14
Subject: Re:Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Carolyn Hax can go either way for me, but I thought her response was spot on in this case. I was in a relationship where this was an issue. We could be arguing about the most simplistic thing (like, could you please clean up after yourself when you spill coffee on the kitchen counter?) and their response would always be defensive. Most of our arguments were derailed by their "off ramps" from the argument. It's a diversion tactic to move away from the issue at hand and change the narrative to where spouse becomes the victim, the actual issue is forgotten about, and the argument becomes about ME -- my tone, my timing of raising an issue while they're stressed from work (they're always stressed from work!), I'm not listening to their response... It's manipulative as hell.
Yes! (OP here) he gets defensive and then I have to make sure he's OK. Yes. He gets defensive and paints himself the victem, as if I really think he's the word person in the word.
I just thought he was insecure. But that's not it at all, is it? He's secure as hell and is manipulating me.
He's insecure AND he's manipulating you.
He's defensive because he really does feel like he did something wrong. He knows that he is supposed to clean up the coffee from the kitchen counter, and he feels bad about it. He can't handle the bad feeling on his own, so he makes you make him feel better.
Anonymous
11/29/2021 13:46
Subject: Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Hax is a freak. She went the same route Paltrow did. Thinks she's a disciple or something. And she hates men.
First or second marriage. I read her decades ago before there was Internet
It's at least her second. Maybe the third.
I remember when she used to do an online live chats on Friday afternoons. Her responses (off the cuff, mind you, no chance to prepare) were so preachy and entitled. It was total cringe. And her posture was always that men were shitty and that women were inherently better, yet always victiimzed.
I wonder what her relationship with her father was like.
Anonymous
11/29/2021 12:08
Subject: Re:Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
Anonymous wrote:Carolyn Hax can go either way for me, but I thought her response was spot on in this case. I was in a relationship where this was an issue. We could be arguing about the most simplistic thing (like, could you please clean up after yourself when you spill coffee on the kitchen counter?) and their response would always be defensive. Most of our arguments were derailed by their "off ramps" from the argument. It's a diversion tactic to move away from the issue at hand and change the narrative to where spouse becomes the victim, the actual issue is forgotten about, and the argument becomes about ME -- my tone, my timing of raising an issue while they're stressed from work (they're always stressed from work!), I'm not listening to their response... It's manipulative as hell.
Yes! (OP here) he gets defensive and then I have to make sure he's OK. Yes. He gets defensive and paints himself the victem, as if I really think he's the word person in the word.
I just thought he was insecure. But that's not it at all, is it? He's secure as hell and is manipulating me.
Anonymous
11/29/2021 11:15
Subject: Re:Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
Carolyn Hax can go either way for me, but I thought her response was spot on in this case. I was in a relationship where this was an issue. We could be arguing about the most simplistic thing (like, could you please clean up after yourself when you spill coffee on the kitchen counter?) and their response would always be defensive. Most of our arguments were derailed by their "off ramps" from the argument. It's a diversion tactic to move away from the issue at hand and change the narrative to where spouse becomes the victim, the actual issue is forgotten about, and the argument becomes about ME -- my tone, my timing of raising an issue while they're stressed from work (they're always stressed from work!), I'm not listening to their response... It's manipulative as hell.
Anonymous
11/29/2021 08:59
Subject: Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I grew up in this type of household, trained by mom to manage dads emotions from the youngest age. I didn’t fully realize how broken it was (and I was) until I watched grandma coaching my 3 year old to manage grandpa’s big feelings by ignoring her own.
I hope this letter writer goes to therapy and gets the backbone my mom never did.
Wow. You just nailed it on the head for me. This is what I'm doing to my oldest DD (7) with her dad's emotions, because we're both afraid that she'll get in trouble with him. You're right that it is broken, and thank you for sharing.
PP saying to you what I still wish I could say to my mom: HAVE YOUR DAUGHTER'S BACK.
She has a right to live in a household where she can be herself and express her own needs, with confidence that the adults around her will keep her safe and loved, with needs met.
When I was four, I fell out of my bed and broke a bone. My dad was the one who came to me because I was crying, and I was so practiced at hiding my needs even at that age that I went back to bed until morning, when I was so swollen I couldn't sit up. This was a funny family story for us until I had my own 4 year old, and realized after a stubbed toe or something similarly minor how devastating the thought of a child not being able to trust a parent to help with a broken bone actually is.
Anonymous
11/29/2021 07:12
Subject: Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
Anonymous wrote:Hax is a freak. She went the same route Paltrow did. Thinks she's a disciple or something. And she hates men.
First or second marriage. I read her decades ago before there was Internet
. I remember her walking out on the first husband but they didn’t have kids. Did she divorce the one she had kids with?
Anonymous
11/29/2021 00:18
Subject: Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I grew up in this type of household, trained by mom to manage dads emotions from the youngest age. I didn’t fully realize how broken it was (and I was) until I watched grandma coaching my 3 year old to manage grandpa’s big feelings by ignoring her own.
I hope this letter writer goes to therapy and gets the backbone my mom never did.
Wow. You just nailed it on the head for me. This is what I'm doing to my oldest DD (7) with her dad's emotions, because we're both afraid that she'll get in trouble with him. You're right that it is broken, and thank you for sharing.
Yep.
Anonymous
11/28/2021 23:01
Subject: Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
Anonymous wrote:I grew up in this type of household, trained by mom to manage dads emotions from the youngest age. I didn’t fully realize how broken it was (and I was) until I watched grandma coaching my 3 year old to manage grandpa’s big feelings by ignoring her own.
I hope this letter writer goes to therapy and gets the backbone my mom never did.
Wow. You just nailed it on the head for me. This is what I'm doing to my oldest DD (7) with her dad's emotions, because we're both afraid that she'll get in trouble with him. You're right that it is broken, and thank you for sharing.
Anonymous
11/28/2021 22:04
Subject: Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?
Anonymous wrote:Telling an American to go to therapy is a laugh. It’s impossible to find a provider you can afford or who takes insurance that is also accepting new patients that also isn’t absolutely terrible. Finding a good therapist you can afford is impossible here.
There is some truth in what you say.