Anonymous
10/24/2021 11:01
Subject: Re:Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
Answers are all over the place, which is good when you think about it.
I concur with an earlier poster that going to an elite college is a rare opportunity to be surrounded by equally bright kids for four years. You're not getting the same atmosphere at even College Park or UVA. No knock on either school, both have their own cohort of high achieving students, but it's one thing to be a gifted minority at a large school versus being the typical student at an elite school. And you do get exposed to a certain level of accomplishment that is genuinely, sincerely, impressive and can be stimulating (and also broadens the dating pool to likeminded peers much more easily).
On the other hand, even at the elite colleges, it's only a minority of students who go on to those amazing accomplishments and roles. Is the extra money worth it? Who knows. Going instate to a flagship or to a private college with substantial merit for most kids will get them to where they will ultimately end up.
IMHO I'm not sure if Wash U or Hopkins undergrad is worth it over instate at UVA or College Park or most flagship state universities, or full or substantial merit at a respectable private college. HYP? Yes, unquestionably yes. Outside HYP/Stanford/MIT/Cal Tech, probably not. If you can afford it, sure, why not, but if money is really an issue and you know you're headed for med school and life as a regular doctor somewhere, then no.
I concur with an earlier poster that going to an elite college is a rare opportunity to be surrounded by equally bright kids for four years. You're not getting the same atmosphere at even College Park or UVA. No knock on either school, both have their own cohort of high achieving students, but it's one thing to be a gifted minority at a large school versus being the typical student at an elite school. And you do get exposed to a certain level of accomplishment that is genuinely, sincerely, impressive and can be stimulating (and also broadens the dating pool to likeminded peers much more easily).
On the other hand, even at the elite colleges, it's only a minority of students who go on to those amazing accomplishments and roles. Is the extra money worth it? Who knows. Going instate to a flagship or to a private college with substantial merit for most kids will get them to where they will ultimately end up.
IMHO I'm not sure if Wash U or Hopkins undergrad is worth it over instate at UVA or College Park or most flagship state universities, or full or substantial merit at a respectable private college. HYP? Yes, unquestionably yes. Outside HYP/Stanford/MIT/Cal Tech, probably not. If you can afford it, sure, why not, but if money is really an issue and you know you're headed for med school and life as a regular doctor somewhere, then no.
Anonymous
10/24/2021 10:46
Subject: Re:Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
Eh, I think many parents (including doctors) do think this way.
My VA neighbors (both are doctors) have a son who graduated from a Big 3 earlier this year. DS did not have strong enough grades to get into a T20, but did get into the likes of BU and Fordham. DS is set on becoming an MD, so they sent him to JMU. Parents specifically felt that lower cost, easier competition at JMU and their connections for research/internships, plus studying hard for the MCAT would get DS into medical school without the higher cost and higher risks of a BU. They hope/want DS to take over the wife's specialty practice.
Again, this all depends on the priorities - does having an MD matter above all else? Or is name-brand important to the DC? The neighbors went to non-name brand colleges and medical schools yet here they are, living in the DC suburbs. They don't think the undergraduate school matters one bit, just the medical school.
One can only prepare for so much, as happenstance can affect life.
My VA neighbors (both are doctors) have a son who graduated from a Big 3 earlier this year. DS did not have strong enough grades to get into a T20, but did get into the likes of BU and Fordham. DS is set on becoming an MD, so they sent him to JMU. Parents specifically felt that lower cost, easier competition at JMU and their connections for research/internships, plus studying hard for the MCAT would get DS into medical school without the higher cost and higher risks of a BU. They hope/want DS to take over the wife's specialty practice.
Again, this all depends on the priorities - does having an MD matter above all else? Or is name-brand important to the DC? The neighbors went to non-name brand colleges and medical schools yet here they are, living in the DC suburbs. They don't think the undergraduate school matters one bit, just the medical school.
One can only prepare for so much, as happenstance can affect life.
Anonymous
10/24/2021 10:09
Subject: Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
I don’t know any MDs who steered their kid to a less selective school to “game” pre-med GPA or to save money. It’s something I’ve never heard anyone in real life doing or discussing — it’s internet forum busybody nonsense. I know MD kids who’ve gone to T15s to state schools to what people here would deem lower rung small private colleges — but that’s because that’s where their pre-med kid wanted to go. In fact, one young MD with an MD father transferred out of a T15 private and into a large state school (where dozens of her high school friends were at) and became a sorority girl and the whole nine. As I said, she’s now a young MD. There are many paths to medicine. I think on these forums people tend to overthink the room and complicate the process. A driven smart kid with MD parents is a shoo-in for medical school. The overwhelming majority of pre-med kids who are “weeded out” were unprepared for college and didn’t really want to be a doctor, they just liked the status pre-med and medicine conferred.
Anonymous
10/24/2021 09:36
Subject: Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
I did the sneaky way - HPY with a humanities degree then later took my sciences classes at an easy program. Got the HYP name with a not to difficult science coursework. Landed me at a top 20 Med school and interviews at Harvard and NYU. No regrets though not efficient or cheap.
Anonymous
10/24/2021 08:20
Subject: Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
yes, absolutely. Pedigree of the school/university matters. It’s on your cv/resume for life. Also, the alumni network of other doctor friends will be vastly different.Anonymous wrote:My husband is a doctor and would be SO HAPPY if his kids wanted to continue in his footsteps - but they don't seem to want to. We're foreigners and not familiar with the medical school admission process in this country, though, beyond the fact that unlike in our home country, you don't start medical studies right out of high school. My question would be: will this student be at a disadvantage compared to his peers from an academic rigor or medical school admission standpoint, if his undergrad is at a no-name college?
Anonymous
10/24/2021 08:19
Subject: Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:In-laws, wife works part-time, husband is an MD. A super genuine and good family. They are upper middle class but I don't know if they're "rich." He's a first generation MD.
Their kids are great students and obsessed with becoming doctors like dad. It's obvious they are one of those families that somehow grooms their kids to become doctors. The oldest is a senior and has a free 100% full scholarship on the table to a regional hometown private college where they live (not DMV). Mom shared the other few colleges the oldest is applying to are Wash U, Hopkins, and Vanderbilt.
I'm just wondering the analysis $75K x 4 = $300K for undergrad vs. literally $0? I safely assume the teen will have a far better chance at a near 4.0 GPA at the regional college. That said, of course the competitiveness, experiences, and the all new friend group (and potential spouse, if we're being frank) you meet at a place like Wash U has value, too – but how much (extra) value?
I went to Wash. U. and took a premed weed-out class there. I got weeded out of my intended, non-premed major, but that was because I was cocky and lazy. The weed-out class itself was a big, pleasant class. I never really felt as if I was competing against the other students.
The premeds I knew who went to medical school were lovely people. So, if it’s really true that premeds at Johns Hopkins premeds are unpleasant, maybe that would be a reason to prefer Wash. U. over Johns Hopkins.
As for choosing between the local school and Wash. U.: If you have a kid who (after adjustments for socioeconomic status, test phobia, IQ test quality, weak testers, etc.) is the kind of kid who scores about 164 or up on a good IQ test, that kid really needs a T20, or the equivalent top liberal arts college program, or an equivalent state flagship honors program, because, unless that kid went to Stuyvesant or Thomas Jefferson, going to a top college is the only hope the kid will have of hanging out with many other equally bright kids.
The smartest kids at Wash. U. or Johns Hopkins are to a regular local college student what a regular local college student is to a kid in classes for children with severe learning disabilities.
If you had a kid with severe special disabilities, you’d hit up relatives and borrow what you could to give that kid a shot at a normal life.
I think parents should do the same for kids who are at the 164+ IQ level. If they’re in a program at the Wash. U. level or higher, maybe 5 percent to 10 percent of the kids they meet will be of comparable intelligence. They might be a little lonely even there, but at least they can go for four years without having to dumb down everything they say. They can experience the joy of having to work a little to get a good grade. I think it’s cruel for parents who could send a kid like that to a very selective school without big problems to try to save money by not doing that. Why do you have money if not to be able to give your kids a chance to flourish?
For regular bright kids, the local college might work just as well. The classes might not be quite the same, but, if the classes help kids like yours get good MCAT scores, they’re good enough. Regular great bright kids might get more faculty love, and regular bright students might have more time and energy for application-enhancing activities.
Seek therapy.
Anonymous
10/24/2021 08:16
Subject: Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
Anonymous wrote:My husband is a doctor and would be SO HAPPY if his kids wanted to continue in his footsteps - but they don't seem to want to
You're unfamiliar with it yet familiar enough to worry about no name colleges?
Anonymous
10/24/2021 08:11
Subject: Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
Anonymous wrote:So we are in a somewhat similar position (father MD and kids want to follow). I think you’re crazy to think $300k is a drop in the bucket unless there are other factors. MDs don’t make nearly as much as you think and got a much later start on savings likely and/or heavy debt themselves.
The biggest advantage my husband will be able to give them is opportunities to shadow and research. It is now expected to have that before applying to med school (did not use to be). Those connections are far more valuable than anything else.
In the same situation (albeit different schools), my kid chose the full ride to a state school.
+1, exactly on point.
Besides, the applicant should consider whether the T20 school even wants so many doctors as graduates. The T20 schools want to have major impacts on society, so unless the future MD is going to invent a stent (and thereby make enough $ to buy the LA Dodgers) or brilliant enough to become a professor in the T20 medical schools (a profession which is not for everyone) they don't want so many graduates to become MDs. Hence the weed-out classes and social pressures in the T20 schools discourage the pre-meds. Moreover, if the DC is brilliant enough to get into a T20 school (the 164+ IQ cited by PP), DC may also figure out that there are many professions that are just as intellecually stimulating (if not more) and remunerative (if not more) than medicine.
So yes, if your DC is dead set on becoming an MD, doing well at state school and scoring well on MCATs is the best course to ensure that DC actually becomes a doctor. The MDs who posted this earlier in the thread have got it right.
Anonymous
10/23/2021 17:08
Subject: Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
So we are in a somewhat similar position (father MD and kids want to follow). I think you’re crazy to think $300k is a drop in the bucket unless there are other factors. MDs don’t make nearly as much as you think and got a much later start on savings likely and/or heavy debt themselves.
The biggest advantage my husband will be able to give them is opportunities to shadow and research. It is now expected to have that before applying to med school (did not use to be). Those connections are far more valuable than anything else.
In the same situation (albeit different schools), my kid chose the full ride to a state school.
The biggest advantage my husband will be able to give them is opportunities to shadow and research. It is now expected to have that before applying to med school (did not use to be). Those connections are far more valuable than anything else.
In the same situation (albeit different schools), my kid chose the full ride to a state school.
Anonymous
10/23/2021 15:23
Subject: Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
Anonymous wrote:In-laws, wife works part-time, husband is an MD. A super genuine and good family. They are upper middle class but I don't know if they're "rich." He's a first generation MD.
Their kids are great students and obsessed with becoming doctors like dad. It's obvious they are one of those families that somehow grooms their kids to become doctors. The oldest is a senior and has a free 100% full scholarship on the table to a regional hometown private college where they live (not DMV). Mom shared the other few colleges the oldest is applying to are Wash U, Hopkins, and Vanderbilt.
I'm just wondering the analysis $75K x 4 = $300K for undergrad vs. literally $0? I safely assume the teen will have a far better chance at a near 4.0 GPA at the regional college. That said, of course the competitiveness, experiences, and the all new friend group (and potential spouse, if we're being frank) you meet at a place like Wash U has value, too – but how much (extra) value?
I went to Wash. U. and took a premed weed-out class there. I got weeded out of my intended, non-premed major, but that was because I was cocky and lazy. The weed-out class itself was a big, pleasant class. I never really felt as if I was competing against the other students.
The premeds I knew who went to medical school were lovely people. So, if it’s really true that premeds at Johns Hopkins premeds are unpleasant, maybe that would be a reason to prefer Wash. U. over Johns Hopkins.
As for choosing between the local school and Wash. U.: If you have a kid who (after adjustments for socioeconomic status, test phobia, IQ test quality, weak testers, etc.) is the kind of kid who scores about 164 or up on a good IQ test, that kid really needs a T20, or the equivalent top liberal arts college program, or an equivalent state flagship honors program, because, unless that kid went to Stuyvesant or Thomas Jefferson, going to a top college is the only hope the kid will have of hanging out with many other equally bright kids.
The smartest kids at Wash. U. or Johns Hopkins are to a regular local college student what a regular local college student is to a kid in classes for children with severe learning disabilities.
If you had a kid with severe special disabilities, you’d hit up relatives and borrow what you could to give that kid a shot at a normal life.
I think parents should do the same for kids who are at the 164+ IQ level. If they’re in a program at the Wash. U. level or higher, maybe 5 percent to 10 percent of the kids they meet will be of comparable intelligence. They might be a little lonely even there, but at least they can go for four years without having to dumb down everything they say. They can experience the joy of having to work a little to get a good grade. I think it’s cruel for parents who could send a kid like that to a very selective school without big problems to try to save money by not doing that. Why do you have money if not to be able to give your kids a chance to flourish?
For regular bright kids, the local college might work just as well. The classes might not be quite the same, but, if the classes help kids like yours get good MCAT scores, they’re good enough. Regular great bright kids might get more faculty love, and regular bright students might have more time and energy for application-enhancing activities.
Anonymous
10/22/2021 19:51
Subject: Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:In-laws, wife works part-time, husband is an MD. A super genuine and good family. They are upper middle class but I don't know if they're "rich." He's a first generation MD.
The analysis is wrong. If they are middle class - they are not paying $75K for Wash U.
Per US News: "The average need-based scholarship or grant awarded to first-year students at Washington University in St. Louis was $54,138."
Wash U is skewed wealthy - so if they really are upper middle class, I would expect that student would receive somewhere in the $50K package of aid.
I am not dismissing the estimated $25K for Wash U vs free. But the cost of $100K (and I assume they have saved something for college) vs $300K is materially different
Pretty sure "average aid" is spin. It's the average award to the average financial aid kid. Not every student, period, every financial aid student. A 50 y/o MD and a wife who works part-time are not qualifying for financial aid.
Anonymous
10/22/2021 19:10
Subject: Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:In-laws, wife works part-time, husband is an MD. A super genuine and good family. They are upper middle class but I don't know if they're "rich." He's a first generation MD.
Their kids are great students and obsessed with becoming doctors like dad. It's obvious they are one of those families that somehow grooms their kids to become doctors. The oldest is a senior and has a free 100% full scholarship on the table to a regional hometown private college where they live (not DMV). Mom shared the other few colleges the oldest is applying to are Wash U, Hopkins, and Vanderbilt.
I'm just wondering the analysis $75K x 4 = $300K for undergrad vs. literally $0? I safely assume the teen will have a far better chance at a near 4.0 GPA at the regional college. That said, of course the competitiveness, experiences, and the all new friend group (and potential spouse, if we're being frank) you meet at a place like Wash U has value, too – but how much (extra) value?
The analysis is wrong. If they are middle class - they are not paying $75K for Wash U.
Per US News: "The average need-based scholarship or grant awarded to first-year students at Washington University in St. Louis was $54,138."
Wash U is skewed wealthy - so if they really are upper middle class, I would expect that student would receive somewhere in the $50K package of aid.
I am not dismissing the estimated $25K for Wash U vs free. But the cost of $100K (and I assume they have saved something for college) vs $300K is materially different
I highly doubt this family would qualify for aid. People making a physicians salary are NOT getting aid at these schools. Trust me, we got nothing with three kids in colleges even from the $80k schools.
Anonymous
10/22/2021 18:42
Subject: Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
If money isn’t an issue why on earth would you subject your child to some no-name public with indifferent students and mediocre professors?
Anonymous
10/22/2021 17:21
Subject: Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
Frankly, if a smart kid just wants to be some pediatrician in a podunk town, it probably doesn't really matter where s/he goes for undergrad. But if the kid aspires to go to a top medical school and become a surgeon or some elite specialization, swimming with thousands of pre-med sharks at a selective private research university is advantageous. There's a reason WashU and Hopkins have <12% acceptance rates and are full of wealthy pre-med students, many of which are children of successful doctors. Wealthy parents don't get off on wasting their money, they recognize the value of the ethos, the atmosphere, and a well-oiled campus proven to groom thousands of pre-meds every year. The average regional college likely has less than 10 kids per year applying to medical school. The difference in peer group and university support is night and day.
Anonymous
10/22/2021 15:51
Subject: Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?
Anonymous wrote:I recently read that many people in this position (parent doctor, kid wants to be a doctor) are choosing state schools because their EFC makes them full-pay, but they want to save money for medical school.
It's just a matter of what experience the kids wants and what they can afford.
My whole family are doctors so I know very firsthand that doctor does not equal rich.
We both went to Hopkins medical school.
Thoughts:
-Hopkins undergrad pre-med culture is pretty cut-throat. I felt badly for anyone who slogged through that mess only to have continue on in medical school. There are much more pleasant ways to become a doctor.
-free undergrad is great. We both went free to honors programs at second tier state schools. We had medical school classmates at Hopkins who went to every type of college under the sun: from the Ivy league to small bible colleges. The trick is to do well wherever you are and to ace the MCAT.