Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was an associate decades ago most associates left the firm before becoming senior associates and every associate I ever talked to said they weren't really interested in being a partner even if they "had a shot at it." Then, like now, it was often a defense mechanism because the odds were so low. And now the odds are even lower. So, yea, you're not going to hear a lot of junior associates admit that they want to be partners -- but every senior associate still at the firm is there because, at least in part, they think they have a shot. And no associate who is actually offered partnership will turn it down.

New century, same way of thinking.

But this part isn't true. Associates really are turning it down.

Not very often.

Far more often than it was 10 years ago.

Based on what? Your feelings? Anecdotes? Or actual numbers and data?

Any associate who actually goes all the way through the associate process and is actually offered partnership and turns it down is an idiot.

Data within my firm, yes. Associates are staying on much longer in bigger numbers (maybe because the salaries for seniors have gotten so crazy). And when they're told they're going to be voted on, and counseled that their odds are good, they leave, with greater frequency than ever before, and at an accelerating pace.

Well, I guess we're all just going to have to take your word for it. In my firm, the process is standard, there's a standard amount of time involved, and no one has to be told "they're going to be voted on."

I'll confess that I can't understand the logic behind being told "ok, you're going to be voted on, and your odds are good" and then saying "no thanks." And I gotta believe it's not happening all that often. Maybe more so in the past, but still not commonly.

Things have shifted. I graduated in 2005. While I was in biglaw as an associate in 2005-2013, it was a defense mechanism for many to say "oh I don't want to be partner" - everyone knew that was laughable when you were slogging as an 8th year (because the ones who REALLY didn't want it left by year 4). If you were slogging as an 8th year you WANTED it and were not going to turn it down, but you said it to save face because such a small % was making partner - at least in NYC in litigation in that 2010-2014 timeframe. So it was the school yard game of - I don't want it anyway.

Fast forward like 2-3 years, the firms had SO MUCH more work that really they NEEDED people to stay and make partner and that generation that's really only 2-3 years younger than me started quitting in droves even as senior associates, even after slogging for 7-8 years. IDK what it was - whether it was quantity of work or just they were less scared to say - sorry I want to put my life or family first and that'll never happen as partner. But those classes of 2007-08 graduates were the first to really reject partnership; you also wonder if it's a "loyalty" thing - they graduated in a recession, constantly feared job loss, many did lose offers at their original firms so they started biglaw with a sour note and a thought of - make the $$$ while it's "easy" (relatively)but get out before the lifelong business generation pressure starts. That trend has continued for the last 5ish years and the quality of associate that makes partner now is a touch lower. People were turned down for absurd reasons in 2010-2013 simply because the firms did not want to make them partner; and the people making it now are objectively less good than the ones we turned down - yet we just need the bodies in the partnership. The cycle has shifted.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was an associate decades ago most associates left the firm before becoming senior associates and every associate I ever talked to said they weren't really interested in being a partner even if they "had a shot at it." Then, like now, it was often a defense mechanism because the odds were so low. And now the odds are even lower. So, yea, you're not going to hear a lot of junior associates admit that they want to be partners -- but every senior associate still at the firm is there because, at least in part, they think they have a shot. And no associate who is actually offered partnership will turn it down.

New century, same way of thinking.

But this part isn't true. Associates really are turning it down.

Not very often.

Far more often than it was 10 years ago.

Based on what? Your feelings? Anecdotes? Or actual numbers and data?

Any associate who actually goes all the way through the associate process and is actually offered partnership and turns it down is an idiot.

Data within my firm, yes. Associates are staying on much longer in bigger numbers (maybe because the salaries for seniors have gotten so crazy). And when they're told they're going to be voted on, and counseled that their odds are good, they leave, with greater frequency than ever before, and at an accelerating pace.

The dream now among junior associates seems to be to pay off student loans and FIRE (financial independence, retire early) as soon as possible. I think many of them are enabled by their families who supported them too long, but that's just my observations as a burnt out millennial who didn't have family help. I left big law 10 years ago only to find that I work harder at a small firm than I imagine I would be working if I stuck around and made partner at a big firm because I don't have any associates to leverage. I'm on track to bill 2300 hours this year, and I'm not at all happy about it. Considering investing 100% of my bonus in my youngest child's 529 plan then possibly retire at ~40 (with a working spouse, young children at home, fully funded 529 plans and an adequately funded 401k). The law grind isn't worth it IMO.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was an associate decades ago most associates left the firm before becoming senior associates and every associate I ever talked to said they weren't really interested in being a partner even if they "had a shot at it." Then, like now, it was often a defense mechanism because the odds were so low. And now the odds are even lower. So, yea, you're not going to hear a lot of junior associates admit that they want to be partners -- but every senior associate still at the firm is there because, at least in part, they think they have a shot. And no associate who is actually offered partnership will turn it down.

New century, same way of thinking.

But this part isn't true. Associates really are turning it down.

Not very often.

Far more often than it was 10 years ago.

Based on what? Your feelings? Anecdotes? Or actual numbers and data?

Any associate who actually goes all the way through the associate process and is actually offered partnership and turns it down is an idiot.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was an associate decades ago most associates left the firm before becoming senior associates and every associate I ever talked to said they weren't really interested in being a partner even if they "had a shot at it." Then, like now, it was often a defense mechanism because the odds were so low. And now the odds are even lower. So, yea, you're not going to hear a lot of junior associates admit that they want to be partners -- but every senior associate still at the firm is there because, at least in part, they think they have a shot. And no associate who is actually offered partnership will turn it down.

New century, same way of thinking.

But this part isn't true. Associates really are turning it down.

Not very often.

I don't think it does happen very often but that's because most associates are leaving before it would happen. I definitely know a few people who stuck it out to become partner for the title, and then left very soon after (in one case she literally left the next month - I wonder if that was actually a deal she made with the firm?) but I personally haven't heard of anyone actually being offered it and turning it down. Perhaps PP means that people are turning down the opportunity to be considered, which is how it works in my firm - you apply through a whole long process. It would be very odd to volunteer yourself for that and then say no at the very end.

Anonymous wrote:Isn’t the idea that it’s like the prize for the pie-eating contest is more pie? Your reward for working really hard for many years as an associate is working really hard for many years to come as a partner. Not sure I see the glory in that.

This. Partners are expected to bill a lot more than they were in previous generations. And develop business. It’s not a break or a prize.

Anonymous wrote:DH and I are both lawyers; he's a BigLaw partner and I work for an NGO. Our oldest son is a baby lawyer (clerking now and next year too); neither he nor any of his friends who are going to BigLaw expects to make partner. They see BigLaw as a training ground and a way to pay off their loans, which is exactly what it is now. Most of them are looking for work-life balance. So, if offered an oral argument opportunity, my guess is they would jump at it earlier in their careers, but be less inclined to do so as they get older and are more likely to be in relationships and to have children.

Again, this is nothing new -- especially (no offense) for the "baby lawyers" born with silvers spoons in their mouths.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was an associate decades ago most associates left the firm before becoming senior associates and every associate I ever talked to said they weren't really interested in being a partner even if they "had a shot at it." Then, like now, it was often a defense mechanism because the odds were so low. And now the odds are even lower. So, yea, you're not going to hear a lot of junior associates admit that they want to be partners -- but every senior associate still at the firm is there because, at least in part, they think they have a shot. And no associate who is actually offered partnership will turn it down.

New century, same way of thinking.

But this part isn't true. Associates really are turning it down.

Not very often.

Far more often than it was 10 years ago.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was an associate decades ago most associates left the firm before becoming senior associates and every associate I ever talked to said they weren't really interested in being a partner even if they "had a shot at it." Then, like now, it was often a defense mechanism because the odds were so low. And now the odds are even lower. So, yea, you're not going to hear a lot of junior associates admit that they want to be partners -- but every senior associate still at the firm is there because, at least in part, they think they have a shot. And no associate who is actually offered partnership will turn it down.

New century, same way of thinking.

But this part isn't true. Associates really are turning it down.

Not very often.

Anonymous wrote:People's relationship with corporate America has dramatically changed.

This.

Biglaw isn’t self actualizing in the slightest.

Anonymous wrote:Real change. Being a partner used to be a pretty awesome gig. Tons of money. Tons of associates to do the work. Rock solid client relationships and firm/client relationships. Secretaries that stayed forever and were amazing at their jobs. Getting fired or pushed out was rare. Now being a partner looks like it sucks for most of them. You work hard. Clients expect lean staffing. Secretaries are twenty somethings looking for their next move. Clients are no longer loyal for life. You have to hussle and sell and hussle and sell. If you underperform firm is ruthless. Looks like it sucks. I don’t need a million a year if those are the terms. Our fam can live a great life on $350k.

“Hustle,”

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:whoa an associate turned down an oral argument? that’s … crazy. did you encourage them to reconsider? I wonder if they have a big fear of public speaking.

They told me point-blank it was because prep would be too much work with only a week's notice! I never would have said that at the same seniority.

I would be really disappointed if a junior lawyer said that to me. I wouldn’t go back to them with any more assignments.

Anonymous wrote:When I was an associate decades ago most associates left the firm before becoming senior associates and every associate I ever talked to said they weren't really interested in being a partner even if they "had a shot at it." Then, like now, it was often a defense mechanism because the odds were so low. And now the odds are even lower. So, yea, you're not going to hear a lot of junior associates admit that they want to be partners -- but every senior associate still at the firm is there because, at least in part, they think they have a shot. And no associate who is actually offered partnership will turn it down.

New century, same way of thinking.

I’ve been practicing since the early 2000s and this was true 10 years ago. It’s not true anymore.

Anonymous wrote:When I was an associate decades ago most associates left the firm before becoming senior associates and every associate I ever talked to said they weren't really interested in being a partner even if they "had a shot at it." Then, like now, it was often a defense mechanism because the odds were so low. And now the odds are even lower. So, yea, you're not going to hear a lot of junior associates admit that they want to be partners -- but every senior associate still at the firm is there because, at least in part, they think they have a shot. And no associate who is actually offered partnership will turn it down.

New century, same way of thinking.

But this part isn't true. Associates really are turning it down.