Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t see anything wrong with that.

Me neither. The opposite viewpoint is why we have a generation of adults that find an excuse for every misbehavior and nothing is ever their fault. But at least they don't feel "shame".

I have the opposite viewpoint. This is why we have a generation of adults that can't handle one little issue. Everybody around you has to be quiet, nice, polite every.single.solitary.moment or these little snowflakes need an apology. FFS! Life is imperfect. Just ignore the hand flapping, the kids with Tourette's, the child with ADHD that is tapping their fingers or the ASD kid the tore up a piece of paper.

All of this over a frustrated kid that ripped up some paper.

The.whole.class.needs.an.apology? Geez, GMAFB

Please ignore, go back to work, stop staring, do your work!

Anonymous wrote:I wonder . . . I could sort of see a scenario in which a kid whose behavior has disrupted the class apologizes but is also able to use this as an opportunity to explain what it is like to have ADHD. What brings this to mind is that years ago my kid and a bunch of other kids with IEPs did puppetry classes and learned to give presentations using Kids on the Block Puppets, specifically the characters who do represent kids with ADHD and some other things. They presented to elementary classes and it was amazingly effective at teaching them about their disabilities and giving them words to explain to other people. They got to the point where they could easily respond extemporaneously to questions kids asked. These were 9 to 12 year old kids doing the presentations.

I also think what OP learned, that it wasn't done as a really elaborate deal, is also ok.

Plus, then when the other kids tell Mom and Dad about the kid in their class who tears up paper and yells also tell Mom and Dad the kid also had to say they were sorry to the whole class Mom and Dad are maybe less likely to start fuming about their kid having to be in the class with the SN kid.

NO NO NO. Our purpose is NOT to be your learning experience. If we choose to talk about our differences on our own, fine, but it certainly isn't a kid's responsibility to do so. Ugh.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder . . . I could sort of see a scenario in which a kid whose behavior has disrupted the class apologizes but is also able to use this as an opportunity to explain what it is like to have ADHD. What brings this to mind is that years ago my kid and a bunch of other kids with IEPs did puppetry classes and learned to give presentations using Kids on the Block Puppets, specifically the characters who do represent kids with ADHD and some other things. They presented to elementary classes and it was amazingly effective at teaching them about their disabilities and giving them words to explain to other people. They got to the point where they could easily respond extemporaneously to questions kids asked. These were 9 to 12 year old kids doing the presentations.

I also think what OP learned, that it wasn't done as a really elaborate deal, is also ok.

Plus, then when the other kids tell Mom and Dad about the kid in their class who tears up paper and yells also tell Mom and Dad the kid also had to say they were sorry to the whole class Mom and Dad are maybe less likely to start fuming about their kid having to be in the class with the SN kid.

This post is outrageous. No this is not in any way acceptable and no one needs to coddle the parents who are upset that sn kids are in the same class with their children.

DP. If the point of inclusive classrooms is to teach kids, both SN and non-SN kids, to live in the world successfully, then parents don't need to be "coddled" but children need to learn how to deal with each other. That goes both ways, and an apology is a great tool in the process.

Or having the other kids learn to deal with it without needing their feeling soothed every moment they might "feel uncomfortable".

Also, I don't really care 1 child is not so nice to OP's child. They can't be mean but not everybody is your friend, who cares.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t see anything wrong with that.

Me neither. The opposite viewpoint is why we have a generation of adults that find an excuse for every misbehavior and nothing is ever their fault. But at least they don't feel "shame".

+1 the follow up by op swayed me into the realm of it being ok.

Anonymous wrote: Especially in this case where the behavior sounds like it was purely out of frustration and did not target anyone.

This stood out to me. I think OP needs more information from the school about what they are trying to accomplish. The teacher said that she is managing a new trend of unkindness toward OP's DD from at least one student. Are DD or any other students hung up on this incident, and the teacher is looking for a way to gain closure so they can put it behind them and move on?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder . . . I could sort of see a scenario in which a kid whose behavior has disrupted the class apologizes but is also able to use this as an opportunity to explain what it is like to have ADHD. What brings this to mind is that years ago my kid and a bunch of other kids with IEPs did puppetry classes and learned to give presentations using Kids on the Block Puppets, specifically the characters who do represent kids with ADHD and some other things. They presented to elementary classes and it was amazingly effective at teaching them about their disabilities and giving them words to explain to other people. They got to the point where they could easily respond extemporaneously to questions kids asked. These were 9 to 12 year old kids doing the presentations.

I also think what OP learned, that it wasn't done as a really elaborate deal, is also ok.

Plus, then when the other kids tell Mom and Dad about the kid in their class who tears up paper and yells also tell Mom and Dad the kid also had to say they were sorry to the whole class Mom and Dad are maybe less likely to start fuming about their kid having to be in the class with the SN kid.

This post is outrageous. No this is not in any way acceptable and no one needs to coddle the parents who are upset that sn kids are in the same class with their children.

DP. If the point of inclusive classrooms is to teach kids, both SN and non-SN kids, to live in the world successfully, then parents don't need to be "coddled" but children need to learn how to deal with each other. That goes both ways, and an apology is a great tool in the process.

A forced apology is not a "tool" to deal with kids with autism getting overwhelmed. It's got no therepeutic value at all. How about the teacher formally apologize to the class for failing to implement strategies to help OP's child? Ha.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder . . . I could sort of see a scenario in which a kid whose behavior has disrupted the class apologizes but is also able to use this as an opportunity to explain what it is like to have ADHD. What brings this to mind is that years ago my kid and a bunch of other kids with IEPs did puppetry classes and learned to give presentations using Kids on the Block Puppets, specifically the characters who do represent kids with ADHD and some other things. They presented to elementary classes and it was amazingly effective at teaching them about their disabilities and giving them words to explain to other people. They got to the point where they could easily respond extemporaneously to questions kids asked. These were 9 to 12 year old kids doing the presentations.

I also think what OP learned, that it wasn't done as a really elaborate deal, is also ok.

Plus, then when the other kids tell Mom and Dad about the kid in their class who tears up paper and yells also tell Mom and Dad the kid also had to say they were sorry to the whole class Mom and Dad are maybe less likely to start fuming about their kid having to be in the class with the SN kid.

This post is outrageous. No this is not in any way acceptable and no one needs to coddle the parents who are upset that sn kids are in the same class with their children.

DP. If the point of inclusive classrooms is to teach kids, both SN and non-SN kids, to live in the world successfully, then parents don't need to be "coddled" but children need to learn how to deal with each other. That goes both ways, and an apology is a great tool in the process.

+1

Apologies are not evil or shaming. It's okay to apologize to people for scaring them or disrupting their schedule. Also, please consider that this child may not be the only one in class with an IEP or who is working on behaviors. There may be one or more children in class with anxiety issues who could be very upset by an outburst. The apology can help those kids meet in the middle. It is not reasonable to expect everyone else's children's needs to be set aside.

Absolutely not. Forcing my SN kid to apologize for every disruption he caused would be incredibly, incredibly counter-therepeutic. Teaching him the empathy and self-awareness he needs to understand when/how to apologize (including when he does not want to) is a long-range goal, and one that forced apologies would only disrupt. Forced apologies are about fulfilling a sense of justice and manners, generally adult-driven; nothing at all to do with actually supporting a kid. Especially in this case where the behavior sounds like it was purely out of frustration and did not target anyone.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder . . . I could sort of see a scenario in which a kid whose behavior has disrupted the class apologizes but is also able to use this as an opportunity to explain what it is like to have ADHD. What brings this to mind is that years ago my kid and a bunch of other kids with IEPs did puppetry classes and learned to give presentations using Kids on the Block Puppets, specifically the characters who do represent kids with ADHD and some other things. They presented to elementary classes and it was amazingly effective at teaching them about their disabilities and giving them words to explain to other people. They got to the point where they could easily respond extemporaneously to questions kids asked. These were 9 to 12 year old kids doing the presentations.

I also think what OP learned, that it wasn't done as a really elaborate deal, is also ok.

Plus, then when the other kids tell Mom and Dad about the kid in their class who tears up paper and yells also tell Mom and Dad the kid also had to say they were sorry to the whole class Mom and Dad are maybe less likely to start fuming about their kid having to be in the class with the SN kid.

This post is outrageous. No this is not in any way acceptable and no one needs to coddle the parents who are upset that sn kids are in the same class with their children.

DP. If the point of inclusive classrooms is to teach kids, both SN and non-SN kids, to live in the world successfully, then parents don't need to be "coddled" but children need to learn how to deal with each other. That goes both ways, and an apology is a great tool in the process.

+1

Apologies are not evil or shaming. It's okay to apologize to people for scaring them or disrupting their schedule. Also, please consider that this child may not be the only one in class with an IEP or who is working on behaviors. There may be one or more children in class with anxiety issues who could be very upset by an outburst. The apology can help those kids meet in the middle. It is not reasonable to expect everyone else's children's needs to be set aside.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder . . . I could sort of see a scenario in which a kid whose behavior has disrupted the class apologizes but is also able to use this as an opportunity to explain what it is like to have ADHD. What brings this to mind is that years ago my kid and a bunch of other kids with IEPs did puppetry classes and learned to give presentations using Kids on the Block Puppets, specifically the characters who do represent kids with ADHD and some other things. They presented to elementary classes and it was amazingly effective at teaching them about their disabilities and giving them words to explain to other people. They got to the point where they could easily respond extemporaneously to questions kids asked. These were 9 to 12 year old kids doing the presentations.

I also think what OP learned, that it wasn't done as a really elaborate deal, is also ok.

Plus, then when the other kids tell Mom and Dad about the kid in their class who tears up paper and yells also tell Mom and Dad the kid also had to say they were sorry to the whole class Mom and Dad are maybe less likely to start fuming about their kid having to be in the class with the SN kid.

This post is outrageous. No this is not in any way acceptable and no one needs to coddle the parents who are upset that sn kids are in the same class with their children.

DP. If the point of inclusive classrooms is to teach kids, both SN and non-SN kids, to live in the world successfully, then parents don't need to be "coddled" but children need to learn how to deal with each other. That goes both ways, and an apology is a great tool in the process.

Anonymous wrote:I wonder . . . I could sort of see a scenario in which a kid whose behavior has disrupted the class apologizes but is also able to use this as an opportunity to explain what it is like to have ADHD. What brings this to mind is that years ago my kid and a bunch of other kids with IEPs did puppetry classes and learned to give presentations using Kids on the Block Puppets, specifically the characters who do represent kids with ADHD and some other things. They presented to elementary classes and it was amazingly effective at teaching them about their disabilities and giving them words to explain to other people. They got to the point where they could easily respond extemporaneously to questions kids asked. These were 9 to 12 year old kids doing the presentations.

I also think what OP learned, that it wasn't done as a really elaborate deal, is also ok.

Plus, then when the other kids tell Mom and Dad about the kid in their class who tears up paper and yells also tell Mom and Dad the kid also had to say they were sorry to the whole class Mom and Dad are maybe less likely to start fuming about their kid having to be in the class with the SN kid.

This post is outrageous. No this is not in any way acceptable and no one needs to coddle the parents who are upset that sn kids are in the same class with their children.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. It was the teacher’s idea and already happened/was reported to me by teacher. I was horrified. But after talking to DC it sounds more like she just said she was sorry during class but it wasn’t a huge deal. The meltdown was getting frustrated during an activity, shouting and ripping up her paper. It has happened two other times during this same activity in a few weeks. So it was using materials inappropriately. It is certainly possible there are other issues (I am starting to suspect ASD) but the low frustration tolerance and lack of emotional regulation can be ADHD. We are making an appointment to discuss medicating (dr wanted to wait until school was back full time in perso and we saw how things were going.) I definitely think it’s time.

She has IEP goals around managing frustration. I sympathize with the teacher about class being disrupted. I don’t want this to happen. But I don’t think shaming and blaming is going to work. Teacher also told me her behavior is causing at least one other kid to be unkind to her which the teacher is trying to manage/change.

There will be an IEP meeting. I want the teacher to get more support. But I’m also mad.

She had to apologize to the whole class?
Sorry that's not okay. DC had a camp where the instructors brought kids who were "misbehaving" up to the front of the room and made them just sit there after apologizing to the group. It was just like they made them wear a dunce cap.
It's not appropriate and does not do anyone any good. She didn't do it on purpose. She got frustrated and they need to teach her how to manage that frustration, not shame her which may backfire and make her angry and resentful.

But sometimes you have to apologize for things you didn't mean to do. The other kids might have been scared or alarmed when OP's DD had her outburst. Apologizing might actually help repair those relationships and humanize her.

What you describe sounds shaming, but what OP describes does not. A huge factor for me is that the child does not seem upset about apologizing. That indicates it was done in a way that was not shaming.

I think some of the negative reactions in this thread might be because many people view apologizing as admitting "I was bad." But we should all learn that what apologies actually mean is "I'm sorry I hurt you." They are about the other person. It's an act of empathy.

It's very oldfashioned and psychologists feel this is not only not effective but damaging. It could lead to PTSD, anxiety and for the child to lash out.
Is the teacher really old?

Anonymous wrote:OP here. It was the teacher’s idea and already happened/was reported to me by teacher. I was horrified. But after talking to DC it sounds more like she just said she was sorry during class but it wasn’t a huge deal. The meltdown was getting frustrated during an activity, shouting and ripping up her paper. It has happened two other times during this same activity in a few weeks. So it was using materials inappropriately. It is certainly possible there are other issues (I am starting to suspect ASD) but the low frustration tolerance and lack of emotional regulation can be ADHD. We are making an appointment to discuss medicating (dr wanted to wait until school was back full time in perso and we saw how things were going.) I definitely think it’s time.

She has IEP goals around managing frustration. I sympathize with the teacher about class being disrupted. I don’t want this to happen. But I don’t think shaming and blaming is going to work. Teacher also told me her behavior is causing at least one other kid to be unkind to her which the teacher is trying to manage/change.

There will be an IEP meeting. I want the teacher to get more support. But I’m also mad.

She had to apologize to the whole class?
Sorry that's not okay. DC had a camp where the instructors brought kids who were "misbehaving" up to the front of the room and made them just sit there after apologizing to the group. It was just like they made them wear a dunce cap.
It's not appropriate and does not do anyone any good. She didn't do it on purpose. She got frustrated and they need to teach her how to manage that frustration, not shame her which may backfire and make her angry and resentful.

My initial thought was bad idea, but I guess there's a context in which it could work -- especially if it's a regular part of the teacher's class management system, so that other kids have also apologized to the class for other things. Sort of an everyone makes mistakes, everyone needs to learn to seek forgiveness and to forgive kind of mentality.

But the bigger issue to me is that you say that your child has had several outbursts in connection with the same activity. This is like a fool me once situation --- why on earth hasn't the teacher figured out a different way to approach this particular exercise with the child? Maybe modify it for them, or just excuse it altogether? Or ask a para to help the child with that? Or team her up with another child? Or walk the child through it in a calm time so that the child can "practice" before the stressful main event? I would be trying to problem solve the trigger much more than trying to impose a consequence after the fact.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t see anything wrong with that.

Me neither. The opposite viewpoint is why we have a generation of adults that find an excuse for every misbehavior and nothing is ever their fault. But at least they don't feel "shame".

+2

I don't think apologizing for an outburst is automatically shaming. Someone wrote in another thread recently (the thread was explicitly about apologies) that the key is not to treat forced apology as a punishment. So I think the fact that the child seems okay with the apology is relevant. It doesn't sound like it was a punishment, more a chance to take responsibility for her behavior.

I also don't think this is an example of having someone apologize for their ADHD (or ASD if it turns out to be that). There is a difference between a disability and certain manifestations of that disability. Obviously OP's daughter is still figuring out how to manage her ADHD and that can be a bumpy road, which is fine. But I do think it's worthwhile to learn early that while you never have to apologize for your disability, there are times when you do still have to apologize for behavior that is related to your disability. Learning this can make it easier for your child to have functional relationships and even a functional work life later, even though they will also need to manage their ADHD. Because as an adult, they will still be responsible for managing it. They will still need to be accountable to others. ADHD is an explanation, but it's not an excuse.