Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:/\ ...and blaming the drunk person only seems to happen in cases of sexual assault.

?

What? Not true.

First, it's not victim blaming to point out how reckless it is to black out anywhere. It's a teachable moment IMHO.

If a drunk passes out and gets robbed, people would have the same reaction: sucks that you were robbed---robbery is a crime---you might not have been robbed had you not been passed out/walking down the dark alley/walking across the campus alone at 2am. Rape, robbery, falling in a ditch, whatever. A person's actions usually play a role. Pointing that out isn't victim blaming though. It's just a fact.

Yes, you are victim blaming.

There is blaming for being drunk and then there is blaming for being raped. Some of us can actually distinguish the difference.

There is a psychology behind victim blaming. It is to make oneself feel empowered and safe: I would never put myself in that situation. Therefore, nothing bad will ever happen to me.

Anonymous wrote:/\ ...and blaming the drunk person only seems to happen in cases of sexual assault.

On my college campus one million years ago there were many stupid, and sometimes criminal, things that happened when people were drunk. People ended up with a criminal record. One kid even died in a crazy stupid accident. For each incident, we all reflected on how alcohol was involved and how much it impairs judgement. And we all said "well if he wasn't so drunk..."

It's not just sexual assault.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:/\ ...and blaming the drunk person only seems to happen in cases of sexual assault.

?

What? Not true.

First, it's not victim blaming to point out how reckless it is to black out anywhere. It's a teachable moment IMHO.

If a drunk passes out and gets robbed, people would have the same reaction: sucks that you were robbed---robbery is a crime---you might not have been robbed had you not been passed out/walking down the dark alley/walking across the campus alone at 2am. Rape, robbery, falling in a ditch, whatever. A person's actions usually play a role. Pointing that out isn't victim blaming though. It's just a fact.

Yes, you are victim blaming.

Anonymous wrote:/\ ...and blaming the drunk person only seems to happen in cases of sexual assault.

?

What? Not true.

First, it's not victim blaming to point out how reckless it is to black out anywhere. It's a teachable moment IMHO.

If a drunk passes out and gets robbed, people would have the same reaction: sucks that you were robbed---robbery is a crime---you might not have been robbed had you not been passed out/walking down the dark alley/walking across the campus alone at 2am. Rape, robbery, falling in a ditch, whatever. A person's actions usually play a role. Pointing that out isn't victim blaming though. It's just a fact.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As far as blaming the woman ... Look at it this way: if someone robbed her, took her purse and jewelry, etc. while she was passed out, would she be blamed? Of course not. This has to do with a man not being able to control himself sexually and blaming the woman for arrousing him. This line of thinking is so old fashioned it's biblical in origin.

Not so fast.

It's not victim blaming when you say, "What was she thinking?"

If you are too drunk to recognize dangerous situations and protect yourself, then YOU have put yourself in harms way. You can't rely on strangers to protect you. Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't. Drunk people aren't just rape victims. They fall off of balconies at spring break, and call overboard on booze cruises. They get killed crossing coastal highway in Ocean City. They get mugged. They drive drunk and kill people.

What are you teaching your daughters? To be vigilant, or to simply have fun and expect strangers to keep them safe?

To be clear: I'm not justifying rape. I'm not defending rapists. Rather, I'm emphasizing the importance of taking precautions and being in control.

All of these examples you list are things the drunk person did to themselves. I was talking about someone assaulting the drunk person and then blaming the drunk person.

Did the drunk person mug themselves?

Look, if you want to get shitfaced and simply assume that all the strangers around you at the party/bar/walk home are your people who won't harm you, that's fine...it's like Russian roulette, but that's your call.

But don't call us out for blaming the victim when all we are doing is pointing out reckless behavior. As we all know, reckless behavior often has bad consequences.

I am calling you out...because like I said, this only seems to happen with sexual assault. For instance, if the girl was robbed and murdered, I don't think anyone would blame her. The problem is that with date rape and campus rape, people think the man just couldn't control himself around the drunk temptress. Not his fault.

Nobody is telling you not to teach your daughters and sons not to drink heavily. I will tell my kids that. But the person on trial here is the rapist, not the drunk person, because he committed the crime. Emily's statement was so powerful in part because we're so used to victim-blaming, and instead she stood up for herself and explained how a man could actually help a drunk woman. It was a fresh perspective. The fact that so many people are intent on putting her back in that box of shame is disheartening. she was already punished 1000 times over for her mistake. Let her tell this man how his actions affected her life.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As far as blaming the woman ... Look at it this way: if someone robbed her, took her purse and jewelry, etc. while she was passed out, would she be blamed? Of course not. This has to do with a man not being able to control himself sexually and blaming the woman for arrousing him. This line of thinking is so old fashioned it's biblical in origin.

Not so fast.

It's not victim blaming when you say, "What was she thinking?"

If you are too drunk to recognize dangerous situations and protect yourself, then YOU have put yourself in harms way. You can't rely on strangers to protect you. Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't. Drunk people aren't just rape victims. They fall off of balconies at spring break, and call overboard on booze cruises. They get killed crossing coastal highway in Ocean City. They get mugged. They drive drunk and kill people.

What are you teaching your daughters? To be vigilant, or to simply have fun and expect strangers to keep them safe?

To be clear: I'm not justifying rape. I'm not defending rapists. Rather, I'm emphasizing the importance of taking precautions and being in control.

All of these examples you list are things the drunk person did to themselves. I was talking about someone assaulting the drunk person and then blaming the drunk person.

Did the drunk person mug themselves?

Look, if you want to get shitfaced and simply assume that all the strangers around you at the party/bar/walk home are your people who won't harm you, that's fine...it's like Russian roulette, but that's your call.

But don't call us out for blaming the victim when all we are doing is pointing out reckless behavior. As we all know, reckless behavior often has bad consequences.

/\ ...and blaming the drunk person only seems to happen in cases of sexual assault.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As far as blaming the woman ... Look at it this way: if someone robbed her, took her purse and jewelry, etc. while she was passed out, would she be blamed? Of course not. This has to do with a man not being able to control himself sexually and blaming the woman for arrousing him. This line of thinking is so old fashioned it's biblical in origin.

Not so fast.

It's not victim blaming when you say, "What was she thinking?"

If you are too drunk to recognize dangerous situations and protect yourself, then YOU have put yourself in harms way. You can't rely on strangers to protect you. Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't. Drunk people aren't just rape victims. They fall off of balconies at spring break, and call overboard on booze cruises. They get killed crossing coastal highway in Ocean City. They get mugged. They drive drunk and kill people.

What are you teaching your daughters? To be vigilant, or to simply have fun and expect strangers to keep them safe?

To be clear: I'm not justifying rape. I'm not defending rapists. Rather, I'm emphasizing the importance of taking precautions and being in control.

All of these examples you list are things the drunk person did to themselves. I was talking about someone assaulting the drunk person and then blaming the drunk person.

re the photograph: the only evidence presented by the DA was that a message was found in brock's phone the night of the incident stating "who's tits are those?" it was a group message using the app groupme, so could have been a response to anyone participating in the group message. no photograph of tits was found on brock's phone or anyone else's phone.
the man observed standing over the victim using cell phone light could not have been brock. brock went from being with the victim, to being tackled by the swedes, to being in police custody. it could have been one of the swedes as someone suggested, or another passerby.
i encourage all you who would crucify brock to peruse the court documents, not just headlines and few statements published by the DA. santa clara county released 400+ pages of court documents last night: http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2016/06/10/county-releases-brock-turner-court-documents. palo alto online + stanford daily had reporters in the courtroom throughout the trial and are another legitimate source info. the DA's office was on a crusade to make an example out of brock and draw media attention to the case no matter what. the DA even shirked their ethical duties by bringing rape charges at first when they knew the evidence wasn't there to support, just to chum the waters so to speak.

Anonymous wrote:As far as blaming the woman ... Look at it this way: if someone robbed her, took her purse and jewelry, etc. while she was passed out, would she be blamed? Of course not. This has to do with a man not being able to control himself sexually and blaming the woman for arrousing him. This line of thinking is so old fashioned it's biblical in origin.

Not so fast.

It's not victim blaming when you say, "What was she thinking?"

If you are too drunk to recognize dangerous situations and protect yourself, then YOU have put yourself in harms way. You can't rely on strangers to protect you. Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't. Drunk people aren't just rape victims. They fall off of balconies at spring break, and call overboard on booze cruises. They get killed crossing coastal highway in Ocean City. They get mugged. They drive drunk and kill people.

What are you teaching your daughters? To be vigilant, or to simply have fun and expect strangers to keep them safe?

To be clear: I'm not justifying rape. I'm not defending rapists. Rather, I'm emphasizing the importance of taking precautions and being in control.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what date rape looks like when men rape unconscious females at frat parties. This is the rape culture issue. Men raised to think it's OK to rape unconscious or severely impaired drunk females at parties, due to of a culture of shame and acceptance of this behavior. This is not regret sex, this is rape.

This isn't 20 minutes of action. This is violent criminal behavior more about power and aggression than sex. This isn't sex. It's rape.

Absolutely agree. It also isn't "hook-up" culture, it's rape culture. If the swedes hadn't shown up, this could have ended so much worse for Emily. Thank-god for those angels!

No one is saying that it is o.k. to touch or rape or photograph a passed out person - male or female. No one is saying that what Brock Turner did was o.k. The minute that girl ceased to be aware of her surroundings - that is when he should have stopped what he was doing. But do realize that the only reason that the swedes stopped to intervene is because Emily was passed out. If she had been the least bit participating the swedes would have rode on, others would have walked right on by and minded their own business and deemed it a drunken hook up. Typical frat party stuff.

Did Brock know that Emily was going to pass out when they walked behind those dumpsters together? I don't think that he had any way of knowing just how drunk she was. Emily herself says that she's surprised that she passed out like that. But she did pass out and Brock didn't have the decency to get off her. This all happened in the span of about 5 to 7 minutes...and would forever change the course of their lives.

Emily - that pretty, eloquent, sister/daughter/girlfriend, full time employee and college grad wound up passed out half naked by a dumpster with an underage drunk freshman dry humping her. And there are 42 crime scene photos to verify the state that she was found in. And invasive rape kit tests plus photos too. All evidence - seen by jurors, police, lawyers, judge and even her own parents. Sordid, sad, humiliating.

Brock - tall, lean, fit Olympic level swimmer. College athletic scholarship. Beloved son and friend to many. Got drunk, dry humped and touched a half naked passed out woman. Now he's a convicted sex offender who will be on the sex offender registry for the rest of his life. Disgraced, kicked out, jailed, convicted.

I'll bet if these two could press an "erase" button and never meet they would do it in a heartbeat. Unlike Emily I do not think that it was inevitable that Brock was going to do this to some girl. If not her than another girl. I think that if she had stayed semi sober that night things would have turned out differently for her. And for Brock. And if they had both stayed sober they likely never would have met in the first place. I think that Brock gets that. I don't know that Emily does. I hope that they can both help other young people by sharing their stories.

As far as blaming the woman ... Look at it this way: if someone robbed her, took her purse and jewelry, etc. while she was passed out, would she be blamed? Of course not. This has to do with a man not being able to control himself sexually and blaming the woman for arrousing him. This line of thinking is so old fashioned it's biblical in origin.

Anonymous wrote:This is what date rape looks like when men rape unconscious females at frat parties. This is the rape culture issue. Men raised to think it's OK to rape unconscious or severely impaired drunk females at parties, due to of a culture of shame and acceptance of this behavior. This is not regret sex, this is rape.

This isn't 20 minutes of action. This is violent criminal behavior more about power and aggression than sex. This isn't sex. It's rape.

Absolutely agree. It also isn't "hook-up" culture, it's rape culture. If the swedes hadn't shown up, this could have ended so much worse for Emily. Thank-god for those angels!