Jury awarded 10M to Abby. GOOD!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I watched the entire trial and I am surprised that I changed my mind on this. The teacher knew about the gun for an hour and a half and didn’t act on it. She just kept pushing it off to the assistant principal. I think people would be less forgiving if a child would’ve been shot rather than a teacher. I would vote in favor of the assistant principal. Lots of blame to go around but the teacher needs to look in the mirror on this one. The teacher knew for an hour and a half about the gun and didn’t even bother searching his backpack, which was allowed. The AP didn’t show concern either.

People in my circle have reached the same conclusion as you. There is a lot of talk about how if this were so foreseeably dangerous that people would go about their business. The feeling is that people who truly believe they are in danger don’t go about business as usual - they take steps to protect themselves, even if it breaks rules. Since that didn’t happen, it raises questions as to whether the threat was as dire as is now argued.

In court it isn’t what they knew after the decision but rather what was known when the decision was made. And the standard is gross negligence not simple negligence in this case.

Yea, we know what that means.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I watched the entire trial and I am surprised that I changed my mind on this. The teacher knew about the gun for an hour and a half and didn’t act on it. She just kept pushing it off to the assistant principal. I think people would be less forgiving if a child would’ve been shot rather than a teacher. I would vote in favor of the assistant principal. Lots of blame to go around but the teacher needs to look in the mirror on this one. The teacher knew for an hour and a half about the gun and didn’t even bother searching his backpack, which was allowed. The AP didn’t show concern either.

Pushing it off onto the AP is EXACTLY what teachers are supposed to do. If you (society) wants teachers to be able to search kids' backpacks (and search children's clothing/jackets) whenever they feel they have a need to do so - and trust us to use our judgment -- you need to pass laws that give us immunity when (not if) we guess wrong.

And the teacher really did not "know" there was a gun. When she was in the classroom, teaching and taking her kids to lunch, she knew that the boy JT was angry/upset that morning and had threatened a kid. But in her classroom, no kids told her anything about a gun.

Kids outside the classroom flagged down the reading teacher and told her. Kids on the playground told other teachers. Who told the classroom teacher - out on the playground.

At that point the backpack HAD been searched. Now the question is, is it in his pocket?

The teacher surely was hoping and praying that Admin, the Security, police, someone was coming to search the boy. She could not, did not, have the legal ability to do so. She was also responsible for the rest of the children in her class.

In hindsight, perhaps she should have sent her class to another room for safety. But these decisions are not easy to make. Regardless, it was NOT her fault. She 100% followed school procedure in this case.

They knew about the gun before the class went to recess. The reading teacher was told and questioned the child. There is no way something like that can happen without the classroom teacher knowing. She simply let the experienced long-time reading teacher handle it.

The reading teacher went to make a report to the AP AFTER the child refused her request to search the backpack. Why she didn’t take the bag with her - she didn’t have to search it, she only had to take it up. Carrying a backpack to the office is not the same as searching it - it is not illegal to carry a kid’s backpack. She was clearly afraid of him.

And when her request to search was denied and the AP continued to ignore her, she made her own decision to go against superior orders. So she wasn’t afraid of losing her job or doing something illegal - she was afraid of the kid going berserk and physically attacking her. Which meant she had to wait until he is outside at recess to do it.

As she waited until it was safe to look the gun had been removed. The classroom teacher texted her about the possibility of the gun being in his pocket after kids told her or the lead teacher. At this time multiple adults knew that there is a possibility of a gun being in this kid’s hand.

The lead teacher made a report, the guidance counselor knew and made a report, the reading teacher knew about the entire chain of events, the teacher herself also knew. She is young and inexperienced - that plays a huge role in her inability to make her own decisions without relying on others to help. But in this case, no one came to give her support or guidance. They helped make extra reports to the AP - but when the AP did not show any sign of responding to the events - was there a duty for anyone else to do more?

“We were only following orders.” I’m not sure that’s what happened. No one told the reading teacher she can’t carry the backpack away and leave it in the office until his parent shows up. She didn’t have to search it if she’s afraid of searching being illegal without permission. She went back and searched but only when she felt she wouldn’t get beat up by that kid.

Counselor made a report and asked the AP to body search and was denied.

That’s fine if he was afraid of getting fired or doing an illegal search. But no one told him he can’t go to the classroom and “walk around” to keep an eye on the kid and provide support??

He could even take the kid out to the hallway and try to “talk” to him because it looks like the situation was becoming more dangerous since this kid now just made violent threats to other kids at recess. This child just made threats to other kids and no one attempts to remove him from the class to talk about what he did or said?

Everyone was waiting for someone else to do something. An entire classroom full of kids and the teacher was in the room with a kid who has a gun. By the time they came in from recess multiple teachers knew about it and other students have reported receiving threats on the playground. The day just keep on rolling??!!

No one thought to get the other children away into another classroom or for 1 adult to take him out of the classroom to “talk” or “take a walk” or pretend to do anything other than simply leaving him inside a classroom full of kids???!!!

His gun apparently jammed and that’s why only the teacher got hurt. Other kids were put at risk by being left in a room with that child. They didn’t get hurt in the end but they had to witness their teacher getting shot and fighting for her life with their own eyes. But their lives were at risk because no one removed the threat or took them away from that classroom (at a time when it was clear to multiple adults that there was a very high possibility of a gun being in a violent kid’s pocket).

Anonymous wrote:I watched the entire trial and I am surprised that I changed my mind on this. The teacher knew about the gun for an hour and a half and didn’t act on it. She just kept pushing it off to the assistant principal. I think people would be less forgiving if a child would’ve been shot rather than a teacher. I would vote in favor of the assistant principal. Lots of blame to go around but the teacher needs to look in the mirror on this one. The teacher knew for an hour and a half about the gun and didn’t even bother searching his backpack, which was allowed. The AP didn’t show concern either.

People in my circle have reached the same conclusion as you. There is a lot of talk about how if this were so foreseeably dangerous that people would go about their business. The feeling is that people who truly believe they are in danger don’t go about business as usual - they take steps to protect themselves, even if it breaks rules. Since that didn’t happen, it raises questions as to whether the threat was as dire as is now argued.

In court it isn’t what they knew after the decision but rather what was known when the decision was made. And the standard is gross negligence not simple negligence in this case.

Anonymous wrote:I watched the entire trial and I am surprised that I changed my mind on this. The teacher knew about the gun for an hour and a half and didn’t act on it. She just kept pushing it off to the assistant principal. I think people would be less forgiving if a child would’ve been shot rather than a teacher. I would vote in favor of the assistant principal. Lots of blame to go around but the teacher needs to look in the mirror on this one. The teacher knew for an hour and a half about the gun and didn’t even bother searching his backpack, which was allowed. The AP didn’t show concern either.

Pushing it off onto the AP is EXACTLY what teachers are supposed to do. If you (society) wants teachers to be able to search kids' backpacks (and search children's clothing/jackets) whenever they feel they have a need to do so - and trust us to use our judgment -- you need to pass laws that give us immunity when (not if) we guess wrong.

And the teacher really did not "know" there was a gun. When she was in the classroom, teaching and taking her kids to lunch, she knew that the boy JT was angry/upset that morning and had threatened a kid. But in her classroom, no kids told her anything about a gun.

Kids outside the classroom flagged down the reading teacher and told her. Kids on the playground told other teachers. Who told the classroom teacher - out on the playground.

At that point the backpack HAD been searched. Now the question is, is it in his pocket?

The teacher surely was hoping and praying that Admin, the Security, police, someone was coming to search the boy. She could not, did not, have the legal ability to do so. She was also responsible for the rest of the children in her class.

In hindsight, perhaps she should have sent her class to another room for safety. But these decisions are not easy to make. Regardless, it was NOT her fault. She 100% followed school procedure in this case.

I watched the entire trial and I am surprised that I changed my mind on this. The teacher knew about the gun for an hour and a half and didn’t act on it. She just kept pushing it off to the assistant principal. I think people would be less forgiving if a child would’ve been shot rather than a teacher. I would vote in favor of the assistant principal. Lots of blame to go around but the teacher needs to look in the mirror on this one. The teacher knew for an hour and a half about the gun and didn’t even bother searching his backpack, which was allowed. The AP didn’t show concern either.

Anonymous wrote:Blame lies with the AP, but I do think in hindsight we have to ask several questions as to whether someone else could have prevented the horrible incident in the entire chain of events.

The teacher reported aggressive behaviors - that was ignored by the AP and the reading specialist saw this interaction. Then reading teacher was told about the gun and asked the kid to search his backpack, which he refused. So she goes to report this to admin, why didn’t she take the backpack with her? If the child did not give her permission to check the bag, taking it with her =/= searching the bag. Carrying it up to the office without opening it means she did not search it without permission so she can’t get in trouble for searching.

Unless the teachers are completely terrified of this child to the point where his threat “no one is getting that bag” meant that she was physically scared of going against what he says. She goes and makes a verbal report to the AP and finds out AP is ignoring her just like she did to the classroom teacher earlier. So she goes in during recess when kids were outside to search the backpack - this suggests that she may have been scared of the child so had to do it when he’s not there and by then the gun has been taken out. I think she was fearful of him. If she had been afraid of losing her job she wouldn’t go search the backpack after she did not get permission from the AP. She reported it hoping to get the admin into the room to provide backup in case that kid saw someone touching his backpack and attack her or others. Once she could not get the AP in there she had to wait until he was outside.

What is crazy is that after the AP had shown zero care about the serious reports from the classroom teacher and reading teacher, everyone else (lead teacher and guidance counselor) continued to go to her to make more reports. And after she refused to intervene from 4 staff concerns, they did not attempt to report to someone else? The security officer? Get more staff without students to go in the classroom to help? They were ignored by the AP - that’s not their fault. But after being brushed off by the AP they simply left the classroom teacher in there with a kid who they suspect has a gun in his pocket + an entire classroom of kids???

“Hey we reported to the AP; she doesn’t care and did not give permission to search the kid.” That’s it?? Once the AP ignored their warnings, they didn’t attempt to get the security officer to maybe keep an eye on a child they suspect has a gun? No one got any other staff (office, coaches, specialists, assistants, etc) in the classroom to even help manage the other kids? No one tried to get the other kids away???

The classroom teacher was just left in the classroom by herself with a kid that multiple adults suspected strongly had a gun + 20 some kids. She was basically left alone by not just the AP, but abandoned by the other adults who in the end, only followed orders.

She has a classroom full of students + that kid with a gun, and after a series of reports that went unanswered to the AP in charge, had to keep teaching while obviously under immense fear with zero other adults in the classroom to help manage the dangerous situation. She was alone in the end.

This is more common than a lot of people realize. Thankfully kids bringing weapons into classrooms is very rare but it's routine for administrators to ignore or gaslight teachers who raise safety concerns, especially young teachers. You're given no support and told you have bad classroom management and expected to carry on like it's business as usual while watching your back and the backs of 27 other kids at the same time. No wonder there's a teacher shortage.

Blame lies with the AP, but I do think in hindsight we have to ask several questions as to whether someone else could have prevented the horrible incident in the entire chain of events.

The teacher reported aggressive behaviors - that was ignored by the AP and the reading specialist saw this interaction. Then reading teacher was told about the gun and asked the kid to search his backpack, which he refused. So she goes to report this to admin, why didn’t she take the backpack with her? If the child did not give her permission to check the bag, taking it with her =/= searching the bag. Carrying it up to the office without opening it means she did not search it without permission so she can’t get in trouble for searching.

Unless the teachers are completely terrified of this child to the point where his threat “no one is getting that bag” meant that she was physically scared of going against what he says. She goes and makes a verbal report to the AP and finds out AP is ignoring her just like she did to the classroom teacher earlier. So she goes in during recess when kids were outside to search the backpack - this suggests that she may have been scared of the child so had to do it when he’s not there and by then the gun has been taken out. I think she was fearful of him. If she had been afraid of losing her job she wouldn’t go search the backpack after she did not get permission from the AP. She reported it hoping to get the admin into the room to provide backup in case that kid saw someone touching his backpack and attack her or others. Once she could not get the AP in there she had to wait until he was outside.

What is crazy is that after the AP had shown zero care about the serious reports from the classroom teacher and reading teacher, everyone else (lead teacher and guidance counselor) continued to go to her to make more reports. And after she refused to intervene from 4 staff concerns, they did not attempt to report to someone else? The security officer? Get more staff without students to go in the classroom to help? They were ignored by the AP - that’s not their fault. But after being brushed off by the AP they simply left the classroom teacher in there with a kid who they suspect has a gun in his pocket + an entire classroom of kids???

“Hey we reported to the AP; she doesn’t care and did not give permission to search the kid.” That’s it?? Once the AP ignored their warnings, they didn’t attempt to get the security officer to maybe keep an eye on a child they suspect has a gun? No one got any other staff (office, coaches, specialists, assistants, etc) in the classroom to even help manage the other kids? No one tried to get the other kids away???

The classroom teacher was just left in the classroom by herself with a kid that multiple adults suspected strongly had a gun + 20 some kids. She was basically left alone by not just the AP, but abandoned by the other adults who in the end, only followed orders.

She has a classroom full of students + that kid with a gun, and after a series of reports that went unanswered to the AP in charge, had to keep teaching while obviously under immense fear with zero other adults in the classroom to help manage the dangerous situation. She was alone in the end.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another glaring problem here in terms of teachers being hesitant to act without permission from school administrators is fear of action by the Office of Civil Rights when the child is a young African American male.

I do think white teacher/black student played a part in this mess.

The mother said that her son actually really liked Abby Z in an interview. It sounded like the precipitating event for the phone smashing and her getting shot was telling him to sit down and not giving him attention. In one interview, the mother basically blamed Abby for instigating the phone smashing incident because she wasn't giving him enough attention. Definitely a complicated dynamic with the teacher.

And the kindergarten teacher he choked? This kid has very very serious emotional and behavioral problems, along with drug using parents. He should have been in a specialized classroom for children with his level of problematic behaviors. Can you imagine how fortunate this school system is that he didn't shoot one of his classmates? It's highly doubtful he had an IEP. Terrible choices were made by these inept and incompetent administrators and this school system's administrators who chose to downplay the severity of this child's difficulties.

But what specialized programs exist for kids this young with this level of behaviors? It's easy to say that he should have been in a specialized classroom, but if there aren't any, I don't see how that is a solution.

I can't speak for Newport News School System's lack of resources, but our school system in Georgia has special needs preschool and kindergarten classes for children with severe emotional and behavioral issues. Every school system should have them for elementary school children. Required by law. Not sure how they're getting away with not offering appropriate evaluations, services, and supports.

Having them is one thing. You need both available space and parents to sign off on placement

Yes, parent consent is needed; but it can be pursued through legal channels. Lack of space is no excuse in the eyes of special education laws.

It's not that simple. If placement doesn't exist, there isn't a duty to create it. And schools are not penalized by the courts when placement is ordered and no one will take a child. I don't know what happened here - whether nothing existed, whether there was no space, whether parents impeded admission to an appropriate placement. Or even whether we don't know what a 6 year old who is this disturbed needs. Maybe it will come out in court.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another glaring problem here in terms of teachers being hesitant to act without permission from school administrators is fear of action by the Office of Civil Rights when the child is a young African American male.

I do think white teacher/black student played a part in this mess.

The mother said that her son actually really liked Abby Z in an interview. It sounded like the precipitating event for the phone smashing and her getting shot was telling him to sit down and not giving him attention. In one interview, the mother basically blamed Abby for instigating the phone smashing incident because she wasn't giving him enough attention. Definitely a complicated dynamic with the teacher.

And the kindergarten teacher he choked? This kid has very very serious emotional and behavioral problems, along with drug using parents. He should have been in a specialized classroom for children with his level of problematic behaviors. Can you imagine how fortunate this school system is that he didn't shoot one of his classmates? It's highly doubtful he had an IEP. Terrible choices were made by these inept and incompetent administrators and this school system's administrators who chose to downplay the severity of this child's difficulties.

But what specialized programs exist for kids this young with this level of behaviors? It's easy to say that he should have been in a specialized classroom, but if there aren't any, I don't see how that is a solution.

I can't speak for Newport News School System's lack of resources, but our school system in Georgia has special needs preschool and kindergarten classes for children with severe emotional and behavioral issues. Every school system should have them for elementary school children. Required by law. Not sure how they're getting away with not offering appropriate evaluations, services, and supports.

Having them is one thing. You need both available space and parents to sign off on placement

Yes, parent consent is needed; but it can be pursued through legal channels. Lack of space is no excuse in the eyes of special education laws.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another glaring problem here in terms of teachers being hesitant to act without permission from school administrators is fear of action by the Office of Civil Rights when the child is a young African American male.

I do think white teacher/black student played a part in this mess.

The mother said that her son actually really liked Abby Z in an interview. It sounded like the precipitating event for the phone smashing and her getting shot was telling him to sit down and not giving him attention. In one interview, the mother basically blamed Abby for instigating the phone smashing incident because she wasn't giving him enough attention. Definitely a complicated dynamic with the teacher.

And the kindergarten teacher he choked? This kid has very very serious emotional and behavioral problems, along with drug using parents. He should have been in a specialized classroom for children with his level of problematic behaviors. Can you imagine how fortunate this school system is that he didn't shoot one of his classmates? It's highly doubtful he had an IEP. Terrible choices were made by these inept and incompetent administrators and this school system's administrators who chose to downplay the severity of this child's difficulties.

But what specialized programs exist for kids this young with this level of behaviors? It's easy to say that he should have been in a specialized classroom, but if there aren't any, I don't see how that is a solution.

I can't speak for Newport News School System's lack of resources, but our school system in Georgia has special needs preschool and kindergarten classes for children with severe emotional and behavioral issues. Every school system should have them for elementary school children. Required by law. Not sure how they're getting away with not offering appropriate evaluations, services, and supports.

Having them is one thing. You need both available space and parents to sign off on placement

I read the parents refused an evaluation so he could not get an IEP.

The boy's father and mother both used drugs and firearms in front of him. The father is now a fugitive but had domestic charges from two women including the boy's mother. She also shot at the father with the same gun that he brought to school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another glaring problem here in terms of teachers being hesitant to act without permission from school administrators is fear of action by the Office of Civil Rights when the child is a young African American male.

I do think white teacher/black student played a part in this mess.

I agree. It was also telling that the male African-American school counselor said that the boy did not behave with him the same way that he did with his teacher.

A PP mentioned up thread that parents were commenting on this trial. Can you link to that? I would be interested in reading what they’re saying.

I would actually say it’s more likely because the counselor is a man.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another glaring problem here in terms of teachers being hesitant to act without permission from school administrators is fear of action by the Office of Civil Rights when the child is a young African American male.

I do think white teacher/black student played a part in this mess.

The mother said that her son actually really liked Abby Z in an interview. It sounded like the precipitating event for the phone smashing and her getting shot was telling him to sit down and not giving him attention. In one interview, the mother basically blamed Abby for instigating the phone smashing incident because she wasn't giving him enough attention. Definitely a complicated dynamic with the teacher.

And the kindergarten teacher he choked? This kid has very very serious emotional and behavioral problems, along with drug using parents. He should have been in a specialized classroom for children with his level of problematic behaviors. Can you imagine how fortunate this school system is that he didn't shoot one of his classmates? It's highly doubtful he had an IEP. Terrible choices were made by these inept and incompetent administrators and this school system's administrators who chose to downplay the severity of this child's difficulties.

But what specialized programs exist for kids this young with this level of behaviors? It's easy to say that he should have been in a specialized classroom, but if there aren't any, I don't see how that is a solution.

I can't speak for Newport News School System's lack of resources, but our school system in Georgia has special needs preschool and kindergarten classes for children with severe emotional and behavioral issues. Every school system should have them for elementary school children. Required by law. Not sure how they're getting away with not offering appropriate evaluations, services, and supports.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another glaring problem here in terms of teachers being hesitant to act without permission from school administrators is fear of action by the Office of Civil Rights when the child is a young African American male.

I do think white teacher/black student played a part in this mess.

The mother said that her son actually really liked Abby Z in an interview. It sounded like the precipitating event for the phone smashing and her getting shot was telling him to sit down and not giving him attention. In one interview, the mother basically blamed Abby for instigating the phone smashing incident because she wasn't giving him enough attention. Definitely a complicated dynamic with the teacher.

And the kindergarten teacher he choked? This kid has very very serious emotional and behavioral problems, along with drug using parents. He should have been in a specialized classroom for children with his level of problematic behaviors. Can you imagine how fortunate this school system is that he didn't shoot one of his classmates? It's highly doubtful he had an IEP. Terrible choices were made by these inept and incompetent administrators and this school system's administrators who chose to downplay the severity of this child's difficulties.

But what specialized programs exist for kids this young with this level of behaviors? It's easy to say that he should have been in a specialized classroom, but if there aren't any, I don't see how that is a solution.